Channeled Material

As with all historical figures, the surviving documents: Primary documents, secondary documents, etc. Their biographies, as best as they can be pieced together.

These show, for example, that Davis, Wyld, Felkin and Papus were all medical doctors, which is how they supported themselves - their occult work happened “on the side,” as it were, as non-profit work performed due to genuine conviction. Olcott was a lawyer. Guaïta, a Marquis, was rich already, and didn’t need to work. Yeats, of course, was a writer (and a damned good one). Lévi, I believe, sold porcelain and old furniture.

Britten did, I believe, support herself at least in part through her occult work, first as a spiritualist medium and later as an occultist - but her fees must have been very modest indeed, for the records show that at the time of her death, her collected remaining belongings were valued at less than 200 pounds.

Randolph, too, died desperately poor, as did Davidson. Probably Péladan, too (not sure - I can look it up, if you’d like).

Don’t know how Annie Besant supported herself, exactly, but everything we know about her life paints her as a born rebel / true believer / idealistic firebrand. First woman in Britain to advocate birth control, for chrissakes. Organised strikes and boycotts, helped the wee little children (think coal mines), etc. From her early days as a socialist, feminist and, yes, atheist (“until humans develop a faculty by which God can be perceived, then for practical purposes one must be an atheist”); to her years in Theosophy and occultism; to her late battles for Indian independence from British rule, her life-long obsession was with progressive causes, in politics and religion alike.

Greed wasn’t quite her thing. And that goes for the lot of them.

Dang, coulda sworn I had the word “primarily” in there! :slight_smile:

Point being: The surviving documents make clear that even if those cases when the person did indeed love notoriety, gaining notoriety was not the primary motivation.

To take the most extreme example: Crowley loved, loved, loved notoriety. But had that been his prime motivation, he would, most likely, have spent his days in the capitals of Europe, where he could revel in that notoriety. Trekking through rural China? His trips to Ceylon, and Egypt, and beyond? Marks, I think, of the man’s insatiable craving for new things - an even greater craving than that for notoriety, one more central to his personality, and a far better explanation for what ultimately made him tick.

He needed new things, for the things he had been born with, he didn’t like. Like Annie Besant and Emma Hardinge Britten before him, he loathed the oppressive, life-denying, no-fun, one-coloured-Lego strain of Anglican Christianity in which he had been brought up, and so desperately tried to escape it, to get away from it, to make himself as different as possible from “them” - all for the higher purpose of carving out a new way of life. His craving for notoriety, then, is, at best, secondary to his craving for strange new freedoms: A common craving in his day and age, among occultists and non-occultists alike.

You seem really keen for us to ascribe the whole set of phenomena in discussion here to the ideomotor effect - and I believe this might be because you already know that’s not the answer. I am falling for no such ‘gotcha’

The ideomotor effect is about unconscious muscle movements. It’s not an explanation for channeling voices, so please don’t ask us to say that it is.

There will be plenty of candidate explanations for channeling voices (including fakery, insanity and very probably some more subtle psychological stuff), before we need to start looking for explanations involving aliens or telepathic chickens.

If, on the other hand, some compelling evidence arises (such as the channeled voices making falsifiable claims that check out to lead to previously-unknown answers - but not obviously cold reading), then maybe we should start considering an external origin for the voices. But that has not happened yet.

Steken those spiritualists who were wealthy perhaps wouldn’t have done it for the money, but as your post shows most were poor or at least needed to earn a living. The fact many died poor means nothing: most criminals are petty criminals, most charlatans are petty charlatans. Nobody said defrauding people through trickery was a sure fire way to wealth. The idea that someone was poor so they wouldn’t have lied for money is kinda naive, don’t you think?

As to the notoriety thing, take a hard look at your last two posts. You started out saying none did it for notoriety, before informing us in the same breath that several liked the notoriety. And now you wave that away by saying if (for example) Crowley had been in it for the notoriety, you are sure he would have sought even greater notoriety, so he wasn’t primarily motivated by notoriety. You might need to reflect a bit on the lengths you are going to explain away the obvious, here.

Further, notoriety-seeking is not something most people would admit to. If someone from the 19th century put on displays of spiritualism notorious enough that you’ve heard of them, the odds are more than good that they sought out fame. Even if they didn’t openly admit it.

If you can show than any of those mentioned did what they did for money, go ahead and do so.

I have, for my part, already shown that they did not: In some cases, we can prove and prove conclusively that whatever money they earned, they earned outside of Spiritualism / occultism; in other cases, we can show that even though they did indeed make money through Spiritualism / occultism, the surviving documents make clear that they were true believers, as opposed to con men.

Now, Exapno Mapcase has claimed that as for mediums, “a gigantic percentage of them have been outed as sheer frauds with motives of money and notoriety when not outright delusional,” but so far, he or she is yet to provide a cite.

I stand by what I said: None of the ones I mentioned did what they did primarily for notoriety.

Some - I mentioned Blavatsky, Papus and Crowley, so three out of twenty - might well have enjoyed their notoriety, but it’s clear from the surviving documents that achieving notoriety wasn’t their primary motivation.

Perhaps this will make it easier for you to understand: Much like Albert Einstein probably enjoyed the fame that came with being the world’s most scientist-y scientist, it would be wrong to claim that he did his science-y science thing with the primary motivation of achieving fame.

Do you understand?

This is absurd.

First: Not all famous and / or notorious people are driven primarily for a craving for fame and notoriety. Besant, who I mentioned earlier, became notorious for being the first woman in Britain to advocate for birth control. But she didn’t advocate for birth control to achieve notoriety. She did it because she believed in the cause. Yeats became famous for his writing - but he didn’t write to become famous.

Second: You do realise, don’t you, that plenty of people from the 19th century are remembered today for reasons other than notoriety and fame? In many cases, only through the dogged archival work of modern-day researchers, painstakingly going through the archives and rescuing decidedly non-famous, non-notorious writers and thinkers from oblivion.

Some of ye guys seem to think that everybody is lying all the time and this I find a bit weird. You can see this also in the effort it takes for Mr. Steken to get across the possibility that not every medium from the beginning of time has been deliberately trying to deceive their audiences. Being gullible is not a good thing, but neither (IMHO) is the attitude that everybody must be lying unless proven otherwise.

Anyways nope, i found the ideomotor effect interesting and wanted to here more arguments from people here for or against the idea that it could be a possible cause of channeling, just to come sort of conclusion about it if possible, and then either rule it out or leave it in as one of the possible causes.

Nothing else has been suggested that is new to me so far, apart from what I (speaking for myself only) am sure is not one of the reasons i.e. that every medium since the beginning of time has been faking it.

“Faking” and “lying” are pretty emotionally-charged accusations. I personally have no doubt that any number of mediums during the ages were sincere in their delusions.

What we are saying is that lying is a strong possibility a lot of the time(self-delusion being another strong possibility), and I find your constant misstating of we post a bit disingenuous.

Not true. The thing you said, right there, is not true (and the evidence is in black and white in this thread)

Not everyone has said it has to be deliberate fakery; insanity and delusion are also possibilities, and it’s probably possible for people to innocently believe they have some sort of power, but in fact just be speaking out their own thoughts and feelings.

You seem to be too keen to take it at face value. There’s a well-worn saying (attributed to Carl Sagan) that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That applies here.

It is quite firmly established that many claimed psychics and mediums are definitely faking it - because, once you know how to recognise their methods, you can replicate them (and stage magicians do this).
When someone new comes along appearing to be doing the exact same thing, the default assumption should be that they are doing the same thing (it’s not at all unsensible to assume that things are what they appear to be), unless they have some compelling evidence that what they are doing is different.
They never do have that evidence - instead, they have excuses (“The spirits don’t want to be tested”, “Your negativity is ruining the vibe”, etc).

In … 1899? That sounds like quite a comfortable bit, to me.

Fine then, they are all faking it.

Ye mad, bro? :wink:

It’s all or nothing with you, then?

It’s all or nothing with anyone who thinks “ALL” mediums are faking it.

Frustrated more than mad I’d say. Angry too sure as it’s alas in my temperament.

What is it that you actually want?

We pretty much think it’s* all nothing*. No or about it.

He wants us to Believe in Magic, you muggle!

And who has said this? Which poster(s) are you responding to when you post things like this?

Let the man speak for himself.

Yep.

Yep.

No.

When her husband died in 1894, he left her some 100 pounds - which has been described as “meagre, at best,” with the addition that “working class men who died in the same year left their heirs more robust estates than William left Emma.” So unless the pound’s value increased dramatically between 1894 and 1899, I’d say that 200 pounds was by no means “a comfortable bit.”

And considering that she’d worked every day of her life since the age of thirteen, been one of the leading Spiritualists and occultists both in her native England and later on in the States, toured and lectured incessantly all over the world, published an endless stream of articles and books, etc., etc., I’d say it’s a very modest sum indeed. Not quite Osho, with his hundred Rolls-Royces, or L. Ron Hubbard, with his huge private fleet…!