Chanukah Songs

The BBQ Pit
41

I lived in Soviet Russia for a year. I think that there is not a lot of social life around church among Russians, because people were sort of clandestine about going to church for so long. If you saw someone at work, who you’d seen at church last Sunday, you didn’t show any special recognition; you weren’t going to “out” each other as church attendees.

Since people tend to reinterpret all their behavior in a good light (there are all kinds of studies showing this), people who didn’t acknowledge other people at church would be less likely to say it had to do with the government, and to come up with something like being there out of devotion, and not to socialize.

42

Thank you.

A Hindi kid from India spending a year in the US, singing along with Christmas songs that one time, is a whole different animal from a Jewish kid in the Bronx, who gets bullied throughout the year for not going to church, singing those songs year after year.

43

after spending hours and hours standing in church you just want to go home and soak your feet.

the nativity eve great compline can go for 4-5 hours depending on the speed of the priests and reader/choir. then back at it on nativity day for another 2-3 hours. also celebrating on jan 6-7 gets you away from the commercialism and secular parts of christmas. unless you are from alaska, i would bet most people don’t even know. sometimes it get mentioned in passing on the news.

i went to a public school in phila. we would do a holiday play. i remember in the wee grades it being a toyland thing where we were toys in santa’s work shop being make and getting ready to be sent out to “good boys and girls”. grades 5-8 we did the dicken’s play because a guy in my grade was a really good scrooge. we would sing “we wish you a merry christmas” song at the end of the play and that was that.

44

I’d respond line by line but it won’t matter since this seems to be the main part of your complaint. There are two Christmas in the US there is the religious holiday and the secular holiday. While I know you live in the US, I would guess otherwise since you’ve clearly missed the secularization of Christmas that Charlie Brown was complaining about 50+ years ago. Where is Frosty, or Santa in the bible? How about the grinch? Christmas trees? At best you can say the purely Christian celebration was corrupted and combined with the a variety of other year end customs and traditions to become the amalgamation it is today. It is quite possible to enjoy and celebrate secular Christmas without ever doing a single Christian thing; you can decorate your house with lights, watch Christmas specials on TV, put up a Christmas tree, hang up stocking for Santa to fill and some milk and cookies for him to eat and drink. The word Jesus never needs to be said.

Those “Jesus is the reason for the season” people are just batching that the majority celebrate secular christmas. Christmas can about brightening a dark time of year with lights and presents and in that world it is totally secular. You talking about it having to be a religious holiday is as crazy as someone bitching because St. Valentine’s day is religious and shouldn’t be celebrated. Guess what, I know jews that do Valentine’s day too.

Once we’ve agreed that secular Christmas is real and the dominant form of Christmas celebrated in the US, we can move on to why people should be allowed to no learn about the culture they live in. When I lived in Korea we went to Buddhist temples for chusak and had a class in elementary school specifically devoted to learning the culture and history of Korea.

45

Oh, just to be clear the very small minority of jews I’ve ever known are in no way representative of all jews even in the US and I’m not trying to claim they are. They were simply meant as examples of people who celebrate secular christmas because its fun and brings them together with their friends. It also has nothing to do with my thought that the kid with the religious exception still has to get dressed up as Santa and sing about a magical snowman.

And do feel free to ignore me I mostly read your post for how weird you are.

46

Jesus doesn’t need to be said.

Santa comes from St. Nicholas, a Catholic saint.

The trees put up in December are Christmas trees, not Winter Holiday trees.

There is a secularized Christmas, but Christmas is not, and never has been secular. I’m assuming you can’t see it because you were raised Christian and, just as fish is unaware of the water it swims in, you are unaware of how thoroughly soaked US culture is in Christianity, to the point that if you aren’t Christian you are so very much an after thought, a non-person, not quite a real American.

No two-minutes of a pageant, I don’t care how great the song, is ever going to make a 98% Christian celebration secular, or inclusive.

Sure, “Happy Holidays”, “Winter Celebrations”, something that talks about solstice festivals and traditions from many cultures, times, and places, that would be inclusive, but that’s not what you’re talking about. You’re talking about forcing everyone to celebrate a Christian holiday whether they’re Christian or not.

Want to see a truly secular holiday? Look at New Year’s Eve/Day. That’s secular. Christmas, even the commercialized version, is not.

47

Wow, I’d bet that less that 50% of people who expect Santa to slide down their chimney know anything thing about St. Nick beyond the “Up on the Housetop” song let alone he is a real catholic Saint. Saint Wenceslaus probably has more people say his name at Christmas.

No, I wasn’t raised Christian any more then I was raised pegan, or Buddhist, or Jewish for that matter. I went to services for all of them on an irregular basis to ensure I could interact with people. I became catholic to be accepted in my high school and went back to agnostic when I graduated though that 4 years is the most I’ve spent in any religion.

But you are in company about being crazy about this. I and all of the other secular christmas people will continue enjoying presents and pretty lights and laughing about the weirdos who insist on darkness this time of year so they don’t feel unspecial and the nutso Christians who insist we have to give a fuck about religion or make Jesus a part of our celebration of joy at the darkest time of the year.

48

Wow. You are REALLY determined to make this an us-vs-them light-vs-dark thing aren’t you?

Plenty of light, people, socializing, and so on this time of year among all sorts of people - which you’d know, if you knew anything about anyone outside your little circle.

49

You know, I was going to walk away after the last post since its obvious we can’t get anywhere in this conversation but then I though more about what you said and I think you’re at least partially right.

My preference is what I expressed above “hey, everybody come and share what you have any let’s celebrate together.” but when it comes down to it I feel the only way people in your position can be happy is to take away secular christmas which is an attack on me and my culture. Without the music in the store and the random lights up around the neighborhood then Christmas just becomes at best another boring family holiday like Thanksgiving. Worse by getting rid of the large scale commercial aspects your are making Christmas more about religion and that is the shitty part of Christmas. So, ya, I think an attack on secular christmas is more about making life shitty for everyone rather than learning to embrace a different culture.

To give another example from my own life. I lived in South Korea for 8 years where one of the biggest holidays is Chuseok it is a Buddhist holiday celebrating fall harvest and your ancestors. We were required to go to a big school wide celebration with food, songs and events and learn about why we were celebrating. Was this “othering” to steal your term from earlier were they trying to make me feel bad for not being a Buddhist. Heck, my parents even took us kids to the monastery most years to experience the more religious version of the celebration. I’ve been the minority being forced to celebrate with a culture that was different than what I did in my home.

50

I would be delighted to not have to participate in the holiday, just to be able to do my grocery shopping without my ears being assaulted for 2 months every year with jolly jingly music EVERY STORE I GO TO.

51

That’s fair and I see no reason that there shouldn’t be stores that cater to your needs. I’ll patronize the ones with and you go to the other ones.

I would like a larger selection of music though the top 50 or whatever very much get old after a week or so. I also have no idea how the employee’s tolerate it without going insane. But requesting a larger playlist or seeking out store that don’t do it are different from saying others should be able to do it. There is also a good discussion to have about the length of the “season” and I’m against Christmas before Thanksgiving or after New Years (aware of the ephinany don’t care again secular christmas) though this year there seems to be a push to make Christmas last until we’re all vaccinated or something so we’ll probably leave our lights up a bit longer.

52

Sadly, thanks to the ubiquitous commercialization of xmas, there’s no place that caters to those needs outside of jewish neighborhoods (which are almost non-existent where I am).

53

Huh, I’m surprised one of the hipster/atheist neighborhoods wouldn’t have something. I was just in one of those neighborhoods at a fish shop last weekend and they were playing normal rock the day after Christmas. Then again I have no idea where you live and if those kind of neighborhoods are around we don’t have a Jewish neighborhood that I’m aware of in Denver.

54

AKA the BEST holiday. I’ve thought that since I was a little kid. And we had the tree, lights and gifts for Xmas until my teens - the whole megillah. This in a quite, quite secular household as my very left parents were well in agreement with Karl Marx on religion.

But Thanksgiving ruled. It was laid-back and revolved around the second and third greatest of the Deadly Sins - Gluttony and Sloth (gotta give #1 to Lust). I was always vaguely disappointed with Christmas because it was too close to my birthday and even as a tyke I kinda despised Christmas music. All the big production of it was also pretty meh once I had hit my tweens. The creeping commercialization is actively annoying and has been getting worse for decades. These days it just functions as a lesser family gathering at best.

55

My family never celebrated Christmas in any way, both before moving to Israel and, naturally, after - but we always celebrated Thanksgiving, and still do. It’s a great holiday with great food.

56

Neither did mine-- and my parents, and my whole extended family was quite adamant the Chanukah is not Christmas. Purim was a much bigger holiday in my family than Chanukah. Children got gelt for Chanukah, that was all. From our parents and grandparents, and aunts and uncles would give us just a little. My parents made me put half in the bank. Children got presents for Purim. Adults didn’t, but I don’t think I really noticed. Anyway, you got such a huge present blow-out at your bar or bat mitzvah, that I don’t think you cared that you weren’t getting anymore Purim gifts.

When I was a kid in New York, with lots of Jewish families around, and Jewish-owned stores, and especially when I was really little, and going to a Jewish day school, that did not get Chanukah off, because we’d just had so many days off for the HHDs, Sukkot, Simchat Torah, etc., and would be getting Passover off in a few months.

We got very few secular days off. We got Thanksgiving and the Friday after off, New Year’s eve, we were dismissed at noon, and had New Year’s day off. Columbus and Presidents’ days were off if we didn’t get more than the couple of built-in snow days. If we had a lot of snow days, or days off for “technical difficulties,” like once when the plumbing went kaput, we had to go on those days. MLK day wasn’t a federal holiday yet, but the day was acknowledged in NYC. I can’t remember if it was a state day off or not, but we always had special programs for it, so there were not regular subjects that day, and no homework. We liked it.

It was major culture shock moving from a mixed area of town with lots of Jews, and also lots of brown and black people, and all kinds of different languages, and going to a Jewish school, to a suburb where it was very white and I went to a public school that was only about 5% Jewish.

We weren’t as immersed in Christmas when I was very little as we were when I was older. When I was little, I was aware that something was going on, and I was allowed to watch all the specials and movies on TV-- most of the kids at my school weren’t allowed to. I don’t remember exactly what I thought Christmas was, but I do remember being kind of confused by it-- on the one hand, it seemed like Shabbes, but with presents, so I couldn’t imagine it was like that every week, but I also didn’t understand while there would be only one a year. I do remember feeling kind of superior to be Jewish, because we had Shabbes every week, and not just once a year. I wondered if gentile kids didn’t get presents on their birthdays, and got them on “Christmas” instead. I wondered if gentiles didn’t even know when their birthdays were.

It didn’t really all clear up until I was in the 5th grade or so.

57

This is why Thanksgiving is our best holiday. It’s ostensibly about thanking God, so it appeals to the religious; but it’s vague enough not to exclude the secular. It’s associated with America, but not in any nationalistic manner that would preclude any other nation enjoying it, celebrating as it does not a victory or a battle, but an occasion of diplomacy. Not tied to any one religion, ethnicity, or group; anyone can enjoy the Festival of Carbs.

58

Um… what makes you think I want to get rid of any form of Christmas?

I have absolutely ZERO problem with you doing your thing. In fact, as a retailer, I have VERY HAPPY to sell you Christmas decorations, presents, wrapping paper, advent calendars, and whatever paraphernalia you need for your holiday just as I am happy to sell Hanukkah items to Jews and hallal food to Muslims and so on.

What I object to is 1) you trying to coerce me into celebrating YOUR religion and 2) indoctrination.

If the Christians at work want to dress up in Christmas-themed sweaters (something allowed by my employer who relaxes the dress code for two weeks before Christmas to allow it) that’s fine. What I would object to is someone telling ME I “have to” do the same. Ugly sweater day at work? Fine - as long as the Jewish people can wear “ugly Hannukkah sweaters” while the Christians have their ugly Christmas sweaters and those who don’t want to participate aren’t required to do so.

The difference there is that you were a visitor in Korea. I live here. I should be able to live my life without being obligated to give lip-service to your religion.

This gets back to an incident I had at work a few years ago. A customer actually yelled at me, FURIOUS because I didn’t wish the customer ahead of him a Merry Christmas. I’m Jewish/Pagan and she is Muslim. Why the hell would either I or the woman wish each other a “Merry Christmas”? Yet this man was yelling that I MUST do that otherwise it was WAR ON CHRISTMAS and so on.

THAT is what I object to - coercion. Failing to allow others to NOT celebrate something that is not their culture or religion.

Again - you are so immersed in Christian America you are no longer aware of it, as a fish is unaware of water, and you can’t figure out why the non-fish sometimes feel like they can’t breathe.

59

After awhile we tune it out. Also, when I’m working in the cash office I can play my own selection of music.

What do you have against Orthodox Christmas? It’s not until January 7, 2021. Why are you denying those other Christians their holiday?

Believe me, the store I work at will be selling stuff through that date to accommodate our Orthodox neighbors. Wow, not only are you oblivious to the non-Christians you’re denying the existence of a bunch of Christians, too!

60

Maybe check out the West Side, Hilltop and West Colfax communities. Denver has a rich Jewish history, which also, incidentally is my history.

https://dbs.anumuseum.org.il/skn/en/c6/e149285/Place/Denver

I

n 1882 a farming colony of Eastern European Orthodox Jews was settled by the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society in Cotopaxi, Colorado. The experiment subsequently failed, and the immigrants had to move to the west side of Denver. There they founded an Orthodox community, which included synagogues, mikva’ot (ritual baths), Jewish educational institutions, and a Yiddish theater.

This colony included my great great grandfather and my great grandmother, who came as a child in the 1870s, It’s a fascinating story, and possibly a bit of a scam, since the Rocky Mountains are not exactly prime farmland. (Our family eventually turned to cattle ranching-making us authentic Jewish cowboys).