Unlike the rest of the western world, why are North Americans not prepared to pay a realistic and fair price for Gas ?
Wow. That’s an emotively loaded choice of phraseology! Expect unkind results!
A better way to phrase it might have been: “It’s interesting that gas prices in the US are considerably lower than most of the rest of the Western world. Why is that?”
(Oh, you’ll also get the “We all drive 500 miles each way to work and you don’t, because the US is large” crowd, though I image the average commuting distance is probably similar, although slightly higher - urban areas are urban areas anywhere you go).
The US does have a lot of people who live a LONG way from anywhere, though - a phenomenon much less common in crowded European countries.
Reported for forum change.
How does one determine what a “realistic and fair price” is for Gas?
Is it more expensive if you capitalize it?
It appears you’ve failed to define what constitutes a realistic and fair price for gas. Can you offer some factual references to help us determine what we should be looking for?
And what makes you believe that the price of gas in North America is either unrealistic or unfair? The US has significant oil production and reserves (we don’t import it all), in many cases it is blended with 10% ethanol (in some areas, including Northern Virginia, you pretty much can’t find anything except gasohol).
Is it a matter of how much excise tax is charged?
The only way to approach this ridiculous question is to look at gas prices worldwide.
In OPEC countries, gas prices are generally subsidized. They are literally less than wholesale.
Some other countries may subsidize gas prices - communist countries have done so - but the almost universal practice is to have governments levy excise taxes on consumer gasoline. Why do they do this? That’s the real and interesting question that should have been asked. The answers break down into two basic categories. The first is that gas is considered a universal want but not an absolute necessity like food. The returns from taxing a universal are high and the complaints from taxing a non-necessity are manageable. Also unlike food, automobiles are relatively recent. In most places in the world, only the rich could afford them until the past few decades. Placing a tax on such a good is not a major source of anger. In addition, gasoline taxes are often directed taxes so that they are used to pay for road infrastructure and so directly benefit the payer.
The second set of reasons for gas taxes is social policy. Some people complain that taxes should never be used for social policy. That’s a very useful thing for them to say, because as soon as you hear it you know you can stop listening to anything else they have to say on the subject. All taxes are used for social policy. The social policy gas taxes are primarily used for is to cut automobile use. This may be done by discouraging the purchase of cars in the first place, by discouraging how many miles they are driven, or by encouraging the purchase of more gas efficient models. There are good reasons to do any or all of these. Cars take up scarce resources, they pollute, they encourage the development of sprawl, they kill and injure millions. The perceived advantages of cars always outweigh these disadvantages, though, which is why a directed tax works as a governor.
So what is the realistic and fair price for gas? Just to ask the question shows a total lack of understanding of the subject. The price of gas is set by an infinitely complex equation consisting of the marketplace, the government, and the producers. That equation has constantly changing answers that depend on local conditions, attitudes, beliefs, needs, economies, and perceived futures. No gas price anywhere is ever fair or realistic. And it will change daily. Moreover, gas prices in terms of constant dollars peaked in the 1980s and have only recently returned to that level. What does that mean for fairness?
Why don’t you think about this for a while and ask the question you really intended?
That is factually incorrect.
So you’re saying that taxes should never be used for social policy? If so, that’s a useful thing to know about you.
I’m saying you post is factually incorrect. If you think it is correct, then give us a cite that proves it.
No, he’s referring to your assertion that social policy gas taxes are primarily used for cutting automobile use. That’s factually incorrect.
ETA: At least that’s what I inferred
Let me break it down for you:
Some people complain that taxes should never be used for social policy. That’s a very useful thing for them to say, because as soon as you hear it you know you can stop listening to anything else they have to say on the subject.
That’s an opinion, not a fact. It’s not subject to a true/false analysis anymore than is “I think chocolate is the best flavor”.
All taxes are used for social policy.
Factually incorrect.
The social policy gas taxes are primarily used for is to cut automobile use.
Perhaps true in some countries, but not in all. Unlikely to be true in the US at the federal level, and may or may not be true at the state level, depending on the state.
Gee thanks for the patronising and rambling answer that singularly failed to address anything that was included in my post.
Try using brevity next time.
I was just musing that Gas isn’t used as an unlimited source of Govt. Tax revenue as it is in Europe.
In europe up to 65% of the price of petrol is Tax, the motorist sadly bears the brunt of inefficient administrations and is mercilessly taxed , whereas in the USA Petrol has remained around the $3-4 mark for many years.
Is the price protected or are politicians frightened of the ire of motorists {voters } that they are reticent to tax it more ?
Are you saying that a more ‘realistic and fair price for gas’ would only happen if the US added considerably more tax to it so as to essentially double the cost to the consumer?
That’s what I’m getting out of these two statements but I think we need to know if you’re truly asking a question or driving towards a point.
To be fair, you posted a debate type question in the forum set up for asking questions that have factual answers. People here can be intolerant of new posters who don’t read the board rules first and acquaint themselves with the culture here before posting.
In the spirit of this being a forum dedicated to discussions of facts, there is nothing objectively correct about Europe’s gas tax policy. You are taking that as a baseline, and asking why the US doesn’t follow suit. I’m not sure there is a factual answer to that, but probably the closest thing is that the way our government is structured, it isn’t politically palatable to mimic European tax policy here.
I think that the market price, without confiscatory taxation, is certainly reasonable and fair.
Your first assumption is that the rest of the western world is paying a realistic and fair price for gas. This isn’t necessarily so.
Whether in the US or Europe, the cost of a gallon of gasoline as a commodity is the same. Added to that are taxes, transport costs, and some profit for the manufacturer and distributers, as well as some relatively minimal costs for additives.
In the US, there’s like 48.1 cents of tax on every gallon. In the UK on the other hand, there’s 2.19 pounds per gallon duty, plus a 20% VAT levied against it.
Since 2.19 pounds is in the neighborhood of 4 dollars, we’re talking about a more than eight-fold difference in tax per gallon, not including VAT.
That’s why the US and European gas prices are so wildly different, not because US consumers are unwilling to have unsubsidized gas.
If it’s opinion, then why include it in a post that calls it factually incorrect?
Wrong. It’s trivially true. It’s impossible for any tax not to involve social policy, as long as humans are voting to impose taxes on human activities.
If you bothered to read my post, you would have noticed I didn’t mention the U.S at any time. Just the opposite. I was talking generally and inclusively. And it is completely true that in general, especially in the western countries the OP referred to, gas taxes are primarily used for is to cut automobile use, as you acknowledge.
Out of curiosity, what does the average European make in a year and how many miles do they put on their car?
If they (in US numbers because I’m not going to convert it) make $40,000 a year and put 3,000 miles on their car in a year they may be more tolerant to higher gas prices then if they make $30,000 and put in 15,000 miles.
It seems to me that however the gas price is structured, whoever collects the money, it’s ultimately going to come down to whatever the market will bear.
To keep the context of what you were saying in the quote.
Cite? I don’t accept that it is “trivially true”.
I read exactly what you wrote, and that’s why it was factually incorrect-- you made a generalization about policy that varies by country, and that varies by state within the US.