So could you bury more than one coil in the ground in another place and switch them every other day to avoid equilibrium?
As to cheaper…
There is the question as to what is cheaper to install—“first cost”, or;
Which is cheaper to operate.
The cheapest “first cost” is a garden variety 10 Seer R-22 (Freon) airconditioner. If the buidling is small enough, you can cut in a window unit. If not, you can install a small “air handler” inside (or “fan coil unit”, same thing) and a condenser outside.
Everything else will be more expensive on a ‘first cost’ basis, but some (many…) will be cheaper to operate.
If the garden variety system costs $1, (first cost) and the GeoThermal (as an example) costs $2, (first cost) the question is,
“When will I get back that extra $1 via lower utility bills?”
The answer will be expressed in years. There may be other reasons you wish to do this, i.e. not enough electric capacity, enviromental conciousness etc.
But if the concern is cost, I can tell you that some of the ideas we’re kicking around can cost 10 times, and easly more, of the cost of a window unit, or simple central system.
You’ll be doing your part for the environment, and your utility bills will be lower, but the payback for the more expensive systems can easliy be many years.
In theory yes.
In practice no.
There is no way to ‘vent’ or ‘relieve’ the earth/vent of the heat build up. In one day, the earth hasn’t cooled off enough to switch back over. Hence the use of ‘soaker fields’ that cool the earth.
Just a SWAG, but I’d guess the odds of someone doing this DIY, and getting it right with a fully functional cooling sysytem, is about the same as hitting the “Pick 4” lottery daily game. Theres just too much engineering involved. You’d have to be pretty smart as an engineer, and do lot’s of homework. The amount of time, homework …
The better thing I think is to be ‘handy’—buy a pre-engineered system and put it in yourself.
Is it really a good idea to use a structure with no windows and no vents as a workshop? Aren’t you ever going to be working with any substances or equipment that require ample ventilation during their use? E.g., painting, sanding, gluing, etc.?
You might want to evaluate your A/C options in light of the ventilation issue as well. Having the air in your workshop nice and cool isn’t that much use if it’s going to poison or choke you.
If you’re absolutely opposed to a window unit… (Why?..)
- An air handler and condenser outside
- A water source heat pump using a well or pond
- A ground loop GeoThermal system, either the “direct” or “indirect” type
- And indirect system using a ‘cooling tower’
- An absortion unit
Certainly there are other methods, but these are the ones I’m most familiar with. For items 2-5 however, expect to pay 15-30 times the cost of the window unit.
It might be helpful to know…
- What you’re doing in the workshop.
and
2)The specific reason you don’t want to use a window unit.
Hmmm, on closer reading, I guess you’re right. That wasnt’ the impression I got form my AISD contacts tho’. Now I’m even more surprised they have trouble with it, the aquifer water stays pretty cold (you can swim in it but it’s chilly). On the other hand, it never gets that cold 'cause it’s swimable even in the winter.
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Mainly metalworking. Inside the building, I intend to do mostly jobs like filing, chiseling, grinding and eventually machining. Welding, casting and blacksmithing will take place outside.
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I don’t want to use a window unit mainly because I only have 150A service at my house and the unit will have to share the same subpanel as my arc welder. I also work with the door open. What I would really like to do is to somehow dessicate the air when the shop is closed and use a fan. How does a portable dehumidifier work? I read somewhere that this is merely an A/C unit with a heater attached to warm the cooled air back up. I just want my sweat to evaporate and not run into my eyes when my hands are full and generally make the shop an bad place to be.
Thanks for your help,
Rob
Really, the simplest and cheapest way is to install an air conditioner. If you don’t want a window unit, then a ductless mini split air conditioner is probably the best option. This will have the evaporator unit in the shed, and the condensor and compressor outside. Two refrigerant pipes and one condensate drain pipe will need to penetrate the wall, along with the wiring for the outside unit.
A one ton unit like this will require a separate 20 amp circuit. Shouldn’t be a problem unless the subpanel is full. It will be more expensive to install because the refrigerant lines need to be installed and charged by a technician.
Compare the price of the mini split to a window unit (probably $150 or less) and you can probably see that the window unit is a good compromise.
Seriously, if you want to condition the air but don’t want to use a device designed to do exactly what you want and is already extremely inexpensive, then I don’t think anything else is going to meet your criteria.
Actually, it’s just an A/C unit that doesn’t vent the heat outside. The cooling coil is set up over a bucket to catch the condensation, and the hot coil is inside the case.
If you’re leaving the door open, you will be trying to dehumidify the neighborhood, a very expensive proposition. Any significant amount of venting in the shed will just make the inside climate the same as the outside. If you really want to change the humidity or temperature, you have to seal it off and use an air conditioner. That’s what 99% of us use, and for good reason.
Run the A/C most of the time, then shut it off while using the arc welder, if you think the extra draw will trip your circuit breaker.
Ok, now we’re getting somewhere…
More questions/
- Are you sure your house panel is 150A? (100 & 200 are more common)
- Where is the subpanel? What size is it?
- Does the subpanel have it’s own main breaker?
- If not, what size breaker in the main panel is serving the subpanel?
- Do you know what the full load amps are on your welder?
- Are the dryer and stove electric? Jacuzzi? Marijuana growing operation in the basement?
- How many square feet in the outbuilding/workshop?
- How many square feet in the main house?
I’m guessing that you’re ok, and if you need to do anything, it’s to upgrade your electric service rather than re-inventing the A/C Wheel. You should have at least a 60 amp subpanel in the shop. You may also consider upgrading your main electric panel to a 200 amp panel. (much cheaper than the stuff we’re discussing)
As Dag Otto said, a small A/C unit will draw somewhere around 20 amps, (Evap/Cond fans & compressor) and somewhat larger if the buidling is a large building.
What you may be forced to do is to refrain from cooking or drying laundry while you’re working. (assuming you have central air in the main house) That’s certainly do-able, unless you work there a lot.
I doubt a dehumidifier will work in this application. On the bottom of this page are some wall fans that are common in this application. They won’t cool or dehumify, but you’d be surprised how much nicer it is if you have excellent ventilation.
A couple other thoughts…
You might consider separating your grounds and neutrals on your sub panel and drive a new ground rod from the ground bar in your sub panel, no matter what you do.
If you leave the door open a lot, the wall prop fan is probably a better option. With the door open, you’re cooling Texas, not your building. That’s not cool. (pun intended) Size the fan for a lot of “air changes” and you’d be surprised how much more tolerable it can be.
Well, it sounds like using a fan is the best option right now. If you’re still curious, an electrician told me that I had 150A service and quoted me about $1000 to upgrade it. The sub panel is 60A, I think. My stove and dryer are gas, but I have a refridgerator and a deep freeze on the subpanel. My welder is a Lincoln AC/DC 225/125. I usually use it at 75 or 90A DC. I haven’t used it since the fridge and freezer have been in operation and I am afraid I’ll pop the breaker the first time I do.
Thanks to everyone for their help.
Rob
That is the most accurate description of this fair city that I have ever heard.
sweeteviljesus I don’t know how long you have lived here of if you’ve ever ‘summered over’ here, but the simple fact is; it’s frickin’ hot here in the summer. There is no way on earth you are going to be able to work in a windowless, non air conditioned building. From April till October it will be uninhabitable. Your best bet is a window unit. A big one.
I’ve lived here since the Fall of '87. As I said, maybe with a fan and the door open, I can get enough air moving to make it bearable. Now what to do about the yellow jackets and mosquitos…
Fair enough. Good luck!