Cheaper gas. Do we HAVE the technology.

In my random wanderings I came across several interesting things over the years and a couple of new ones which, considering the current propensity of OPEC to jerk us around and push us closer and closer to not only a wrecked economy but a potential war, seem worth looking into.

FACT: In WW2, the Germans developed synthetic oil.
FACT: Gasoline can be made from coal.
FACT: New Zealand takes wood alcohol and turns it not into gasohol, but regular gasoline.
FACT: We make several forms of synthetic oil, the cost of which has been steadily dropping.
FACT: The current synthetic oil extends the time between oil changes from every 3000 to every 10,000 miles.
FACT: The major American Oil Companies have deliberately discouraged the development or the usage of alternate fuels for decades.
FACT: The major American Oil Companies have a complete monopoly on all oil based fuel in the United States.

The New Zealand one got me. I was watching educational television and saw a short clip where they mentioned how NZ has no oil wells of it’s own and is dependent on imported oil. So, they have diminished their reserves and are happily churning out gasoline to replenish them by a process which converts wood alcohol into it.

I stumbled across an article somewhere which mentioned that during WW2, the British were able to make gasoline out of coal.

I had read ages ago where the German Synthetic oil was too costly to manufacture except during war time, but not too many years ago, synthetic oil was introduced on television. (You’ve seen the advertisements where they dump this $20 a can oil into an engine on a block, run it, drain all of the oil out and even drain out the coolant and the engine purrs on.) As time went by, different forms of synthetic oils hit the market and the price dropped considerably. (Like a RONCO product – starts out at $200 and a year later is in Kmart at $29.95.) Plus, even mechanics I know agree with the claims of the oils and recommend it. (Including my brother, who is a commercial mechanic.) I observed that instead of having to change the oil every 3000 miles, now it is up to 10,000. That sort of makes up for the slightly elevated cost per can. (Most now available at $3.00 a quart.)

For ages people have been printing out articles about the monopoly of the American Oil Industry and price fixes, suppressed technology and so on – and some of them true. Look at the effective campaign against Nuclear Reactors which all but stopped any exploration into reactor generated, cheap energy. (I’m ignoring the sloppy construction by nefarious contractors and the several instances of poor staffing by the companies running some of the reactors.)

The Alaskan pipeline was supposed to cure our fuel problems when OPEC first decided to screw us, but that has not happened. The Oil Industry decided to restrict the flow. However, the fuel crisis was sufficient to push through the desired pipeline in the first place, which was what the major oil industries had been wanting for years.

Gasohol. That was a bust. Suddenly it was eating up plastic parts in carburetors and rumors spread like wild fire about how it was bad for cars. Interestingly enough, most of the affected plastic parts had replacements of metal. Gasohol almost went belly up.

Also interesting was that while the prices of gasoline were going through the roof, the plastics industry, which needs petrol products, did not increase the cost of their items.

Even more interesting, to me at least, was the fact that banks invested in the price of oil – which has this tendency, like in all stocks, to push prices up. Most people I know who are economists have pointed out that such investments are unstable (as the banks found out when OPEC unexpectedly dropped the price way down and cost them millions) and not good for the economy BUT are potential high gains for the banks.

So, if New Zealand can produce gas, why can’t we? (Oil companies still burn off millions of gallons of natural gas as a waste product, yet it is highly used here and sells at $2.75 for a pressurized gallon!) We already know, by way of the synthetic oil, that the more a product is produced, the lower the manufacturing cost drops.

According to some very speculative and more rational than I, people I know, we can produce inexpensive gas in large quantities WITHOUT having to use all that much new wood. After all, much recycled news print is tossed away or, after being used X number of times, the fibers in the paper become too broken to be used in making more paper with. It can be used as wood pulp. Much of our wood mill waste is not recycled and can be poured into the fermenting hoppers. (A lot of that new chip and particle board so liked in construction is usually made from shredded, new trees with a bit of recycled matter tossed in.) Even hay and certain weeds can be tossed in. Gasoline can be made at far less than the current prices.

They agree that the American Oil Companies, who are steadily making profits, do not want this technology used until THEY manage to monopolize it.

Kind of like the Auto industry. They ran several smaller, better companies out of business (Delorian comes to mind along with the fabulous Tucker) and incorporated many of their designs into their own cars – after continuing to churn out gas guzzlers, oil burners, and death traps until they decided it was profitable to change. (Ralph Nader helped tremendously in forcing their hand in that.)

It has been shown since the 70s that OPEC increases the prices, our economy staggers, we develop economy cars, and they drop the costs per barrel as we recover. Our economy booms, the local yokels go back to buying gas guzzlers and building poorly insulated homes and OPEC hikes the prices again and the whole thing starts all over.

Unfortunately, our own oil companies are quick to capitalize
on such things. Like the price of diesel went up beyond gasoline and never really came back down. Curiously, while gas prices fluctuate, lubrication oil prices do not. (For the dim, gasoline is made from oil. So, logically, the price of a can of oil should fluctuate as rapidly, though not as much because gas is a by product of oil.)

So, what do you think? Can we make cheap gas from wood alcohol and, if so, why are we not?

I ran across a website the other day about soy diesel. It just so happens that we can mfg diesel from soy beans. It did not compare costs which I guess I understand since they fluctuate a lot.
There was also a van that toured the US which made their own fuel from waste cooking oil. There also was no mention of cost.
There is also an article in Soybean Digest Apr 2000 about the Kurtz family who manufacture soybean meal and soybean oil on their farm in missouri.They get 312#of oil from 1 ton of soybeans and the meal still contains 6%oil It costs about $8.00 worth of electricity to produce the feed and seperate the oil from a ton of soybeans.
By the way soy diesel smells like frenchfries.
I’ll see if I can find the websites.

This isn’t directly related to synthetic gasoline or gasoline alternatives, but Cecil Adams did a column once on the 200 mile-per-gallon carburetor rumors: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_150.html

Although this article was written before the recent gas-price hike, it does say, quote, “corrected for inflation, gasoline today costs less than it did in 1973.”

The websites are mentioned in paintsvillecom s question “could I make my own gasoline” in GQ. It is SR4s comment.
Sorry I don’t know how to post a website yet.

I was actually going to reference that Cecil column… Cecil says, quite accurately, that it’s not worth the price to the consumer to make cars which get mileage.

Of course now, gas is incredibly higher than that. And coincidentally, when I was getting soem maintenance done, I asked my mechanic (yes, I have a mechanic) about anything on the horizon about cars that get much better mileage.

He told me that from what he’s heard, they’re about a year away, but they are looking at bringing them out. They will be solar powered, but only in that the solar power will make it easier on the engine, which is still a gas engine.

Obviously, this is not a 100% sure thing, since when the solar power is not saved up, you’re relying on gas anyway. But it’s a fair share better than the electric prototypes which maxed out at 45MPR and needed to be plugged in every four hours, and these cars should average 80 miles to the gallon, about twice as efficient as the most economical cars that are being made right now.

Also, I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that these high gas prices, like everything else, does have a bright side.

If just one of those trendy yuppie SUV-driving fuckers had to sell the gas guzzlers because they couldn’t afford it, I’ll gladly fork over some bread in my not-so trendy but very efficient Escort! :slight_smile:


Yer pal,
Satan

I guess you take your schadenfreude where you can find it, eh, Satan?


“Those darn Germans have a word for EVERYTHING!”
H. Simpson

trendy yuppie SUV-driving whore-dog mongering goat feltching fuckers

I do have problems with the luxurious SUVs and I’m getting REALLY steamed over those idle rich who just HAVE to buy a customized HUMMER to fart around town in. I’d like to get a jeep again, but I do more than just drive to the grocery store, the office and the bar.

Anyhow. OK. We’ve got this technology. American Oil invested heavily in the OPEC oil fields --(most of the equipment there was ours until they kind of took it away and kicked us out)-- and obviously has some sort of deal with them because the Great Savior, the Alaskan Pipeline, has mysteriously been slowed down, plus, and I don’t mind this at all, those huge Texas Oil millionaires suddenly have their wells capped and not much oil exploration is going on. Nor is there all that much effort as before in finding off shore wells around the US.

Now, the major oil companies are not going bankrupt. They are linked real snugly with the automobile racket. If Big Tobacco had linked up with those two somehow, I doubt if anyone would have ever managed to get the lawsuits even to court.

So, how do we force the oil companies and our government to start producing cheaper gas? Cheap gas, before everyone realized that A: it was not a bottomless well and B: the exhaust products were changing the atmosphere, was good for the economy. Cheap gas meant more tourism, cheaper power, and cheaper power meant cheaper prices in the grocery stores, a better standard of living, more dollars to spend and more international travel. (Paying nearly a grand just to fly overseas is ridiculous!)

A 200 mpg carburetor is probably a pipe dream, unless we come up with a more powerful fuel, but the French and British have been using cars with small, fuel saving engines and made up the difference in power with better transmissions. (As a result, as they saved fuel and used less, their government jacked the prices up with various taxes so they actually pay more than we do.)

In 1973, when the fuel crunch hit and stations were running out of gas, I used to get fried sitting in line, trying to get gas before the pumps ran dry, late for work and watching some SOB in a MASSIVE, 4 wheel drive truck filling up not only its huge tank but filling the 100 gallon tanks on his portable ocean liner of a boat so he could go boating!

I noticed that boat, car, and all forms of racing never even slowed down, but the average Joe in the average car had to fight to get gas. We got screwed. (A friend of mine worked for a major construction company which contracted for city governments across the State. He offered me gas at 55 cents a gallon when the price was $1.75 for regular. He said his company bought it at 55 cents from the dealers!! I realized that while we were paying $1.75 per gallon, the major fuel companies were selling it to contractors and such at 55 cents and still making a profit!

I bought it! I happened to look at the then newly included fuel cost on my power bill, which fluctuated according to the fuel prices and the amount of power I used. A friend of mine in the city power company told me that the fuel cost was on a slow but steadily increasing spiral and that it would always go up, but never down. If I used less power, trying to save money, the fuel charge went up. When I used more power, it went down! On top of all of this, I realized that the power plant was getting fuel at probably less cost than the construction company was, PLUS it was buying power from the local nuclear plant AND occasionally selling it some!

Everyone was getting screwed in this process but the companies! Some time later, when the cost of fuel dropped, the fuel adjustment remained on all city power bills and is still there today. My friend was right, it would never go away. Now my local city has slapped a tax on gasoline.

Everyone makes money off of gasoline except us. They like to blame it all on OPEC, which, justifiably, they are mostly to blame, but our own governments are screwing us too. We need cheaper gas!

I liked those days of full service, when gasoline was 25 cents a gallon for regular and 55 for high test. Gas wars could drop it to 15 cents and 20. Plus, the price differences between stations was more than a penny or two and more like 5 cents.

How do we stop getting screwed?

Sentinel asked:

Buy less of it. It’s called “supply and demand.”

Kimstu

Keep ISTEA funding for alternative transit!!

Cars can be made that run on hydrogen. Dare I say that it will be the end of the universe before we ran out of hydrogen.


The Stanley Cup: A repeat is in the STARS!

BUY LESS
Every time we do this, they jack the prices up, like in France. While fuel prices dropped some when we started producing economy cars, the loss in sales caused the oil companies to increase the gallon price moderately.

Hydrogen fuel
You need a magnetic field reinforced flask to contain it. Plus, no matter what container it is put in, it ‘leaks’. Cold fusion would be a good source of power for electric cars also, but that’s not gonna happen so long as big oil is about.

(COLD FUSION: The creators were debunked as fakes and dropped out of sight. Interestingly enough, a couple of the ‘investigating scientists’ took out patents covering various forms of the cold fusion work, effectively bottling up any productive research on the process for years. These scientists worked for the major oil companies.)


Some mornings, it’s just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

Salutations,

I don’t get it. Why do people assume OPEC tried to screw us?

OPEC owns the oil. If they decide to sell it at a higher price, that seems like good bussiness to me. It’s not like we are going to decide not to buy it.

Maybe they just wanted more money.

Also, are gas prices high?
Doesn’t America have lower gas prices than other countries?


Just putting my 2sense in.

Tyranny,* like Hell*,* is not easily conquered*.
-Thomas Paine (fugitive slave catcher)

OPEC decided to screw us AFTER we closed up most of our wells, cut back on off shore drilling, decreased the flow of the Alaskan pipeline and let them know that we had decided that our oil reserves were almost depleted. Then we became nearly 90% dependent on their oil. We buy nearly half of it.

The majority of their oil wells, processing plants and distribution centers were established and built by American Oil Companies. Some time back, they decided to kick us out of the country and took over the properties we held. For some, they paid. Then, when things started going a bit bad for them, they requested and go American engineers over to run and repair the plants, for a cost.

All of the OPEC nations have received billions in American aide over the decades, tons of free American food, free American education, American farming experts, American business experts and American technology, often free, to help them out and to kind of show appreciation for us owning the oil plants – and we STILL paid them a fee per barrel for the oil BEFORE they took over the plants. We dumped in American medical help when they were floundering and struggling from civil wars and British Colonialism – which treated all of them like substandard beings. Then we shoved in millions per year in American tourism, created major trade programs and helped them establish their current governments more securely.

Now, they control the oil for most of the world and they are greedy. Each time they raise the prices, economies stagger, people are laid off and millions suffer. It’s not like they need the money, because they are so rich now that they throw money away – except within the general direction of their own poor working class slobs.

When you provide a necessity, it is good business to keep the prices within range, lessons broken up American monopolies learned too late, which initiated the whole mass of regulatory laws we have. We provide billions of tons of grain for needy nations and our government keeps the prices regulated and easily affordable. Unfortunately, in some nations, once they buy the American grain, they resell it to starving and desperate people at jacked up prices.

OPEC acts out of simple greed, religious and cultural hostility and a failure to understand or have ‘grown’ into their technology. Not too long ago they were happily chasing each other through the dunes and murdering indiscriminately. Suddenly, they get handed technology they have not had time to earn. Now they act like kids with bigger water guns. Bullies. Plus, if they frequently drop and then raise the price of gasoline, the sudden changes can wreck whole economies, as we nearly found out in the 70s.

If they keep it up and hurt too many nations, I expect that someone will invade and the rest will follow to gain control of the wells and to install a cooperative government as well as policing body no matter how much the humanists wail and rant about injustice.


Some mornings, it’s just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

America shouldent help anyone:P

Sentinel:

Thanks for answering my post.
But I don’t agree.

We didn’t send them aid for humanitarian reasons. We sent them money to help them better control the oil.

Why should we complain when they do just that?

I don’t think they are any more greedy than anyone else. After all, when the oil runs out what will they have left?


Just putting my 2sense in.

Tyranny,* like Hell*,* is not easily conquered*.
-Thomas Paine (fugitive slave catcher)

I think you’re mistaking hydrogen for anti-matter. Even if you need “a magnetic field reinforced flask” big deal. The question was about cheap fuel, and hydrogen would sitll be cheaper than anything else.

The Stanley Cup: A repeat is in the STARS!

ADAM

Correct. Hydrogen would be a cheap, clean and efficient fuel but do we have the current technology to manufacture, contain, deliver and use it safely?

We have the technology to use liquid fuels right now.

Pre-OPEC the average price of gasoline was around 55 cents a gallon for regular. Sometimes it dropped to 45 cents. POST-OPEC the lowest LOCAL price I’ve seen is 97 cents a gallon. Now it is up to $1.52.

The gas greed started in 1973 – that’s 27 years of screwing with the prices.


Some mornings, it’s just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

That’s 27 years of inflation, too. I have not found any sources for 1973 prices (where did you get yours?) but accepting yours as gospel I figured 'em for inflation. With 4% inflation (which I believe is the approximate average for those years–correct me if I am wrong. The average since 1950 is 3.2%, but the 70s had some banner years, like 13.3% in 1979), the new gas prices are $1.24 and $1.52, respectively. So I would have to see further evidence before I believe that gas prices are out of line due to OPEC. IIRC, I have seen data that shows that gas is (inflation-adjusted, and likely with better data than my guesstimate) considerably cheaper now than it was then.

In a word, yes. The technology exists and is only going to improve http://www.ch2bc.org/

The Stanley Cup: A repeat is in the STARS!

Satan, Prince of Darkness, sed:

Actually, the new “hybrid” cars coming out (very soon) are electric/gas hybrids. I don’t know of a solar/gas hybrid in production, but I could be wrong. The current electric/gas hybrids use a small gas engine and an electric motor tied to a flywheel. The flywheel charges the electric motor, and the gas engine is used when power demands are too great for the motor to accommodate (say, going up a hill). You can find more info about one of them here:
http://www.honda2000.com/models/insight/index.html
BTW, Honda says this one gets 61/70 MPG, City/Hwy.