Chemistry nerd questions - electron orbitals

I went to a local tutor last Saturday to ask some of these questions, but though she gets good grades in her college chem classes, these were things that had never really come up.

Atoms are often depicted as being basically round, but the shapes of the actual orbitals are mostly not. I’m assuming you’ve seen diagrams of p or d orbitals.

  1. Are all orbitals in “shell 4” really of a similar energy? If so, why do they fill so far apart, like the 4s and the 4d? Isn’t the energy shell number really more of a bookkeeping method?

  2. Do the electrons fill the entire space of the orbital, or do the stay close to the surface of the “balloon” (as the orbitals are often kind of shown)? Her book seemed to show that they fill the space.

  3. Her book also said that the reason the 4s orbital fill before the 3d is that it “allows closer penetration of the electron to the vicinity of the nucleus.” Why is that?

  4. Are all these orbitals intersecting each other? The 4p must be running through all four s orbitals, just for one example.

  5. Are electrons considered to be point charges that have variable paths, or are they so small that the de Broglie wave function literally makes their location spread out? I thought the wave function meant that the point charge had a variable path and that the “charge cloud” nomenclature was a way of describing it in practical terms, as that’s how it acts in human perception.

  6. How do Americans pronounce de Broglie? Even the internet has failed me on this one.

de-BROY

The shell number (principal quantum number) specifies the average distance of the electron from the nucleus. Orbitals of a particular shell number are only equal in energy when you are talking about single electron atoms (i.e. hydrogen atoms). In multi-electron systems, the electrons interact with one another, so the shell number alone does not give a complete picture of the orbital’s energy level.

They “fill the space”. The pictorial representations of the orbitals are meant to illustrate the probability of an electron’s location in a particular orbital.

Not sure what the book meant in this context. Electrons occupy the 4s shell before the 3d shell because the 4s shell is at a lower energy level when taking into account proximity to the nucleus and interactions with other electrons in the atom. (1s, 2s, 2p, 3s, 3p).

The probability functions overlap in some spaces, yes.

The electrons are being modeled as waves. They are not being modeled as part of a complex Bohr model-like atomic structure.

See Fantome’s response.

If you wanted to think of an electron as a point object, it would be pretty small compared to its orbit. It would also strongly repel other electrons, making a true collisions virtually impossible.

However, it makes more sense to think of electrons and their orbitals as waves. I don’t know if you’ve looked at the equations that govern electron orbitals, but it looks like a wave function more than, say, the moon’s orbit around the Earth. (Back in high school, my chemistry teacher decided I was bound for a Nobel someday because I was able to guess at some of the key elements in the equation). So you should really think of the orbital as a line through the center of a probability distribution rather than as a distinct path or specific location.

When you get down to things like electrons, you really can’t talk about them moving along a particular path. To properly describe them, you need quantum mechanics, but that failing, you’re less wrong to say that they’re smeared out over the entire orbital than you would be to say that they’re moving along an orbit.

Until the atom is bound to something has spherical symmetry. Essentially, it is round. Once it is bound to something, the electron density will dominate the area between the atoms. Non-bonding and anti-bonding orbitals will change things a bit. You really have to define what you mean by shape of the atom, but electron density is useful.

Caldazar got this.

The balloon is just to show you the general shape and symmetry of the orbital. The balloon is usually drawn at the 90% certainty level. The electron has some probability of being anywhere. The electron interacts as the entire orbital.

Much of the electron density of the 4s orbital is inside some of the other orbital density. This makes it’s energy lower since it is less shielded by the other orbitals.

Of course they are. Where the symmetry allows, they interact as well, but unless you modify the symmetry with another atom, they are in the lowest energy state as is. Throw in a neighboring atom and they will hybridize to accommodate the new symmetry.

I don’t think it makes any sense to talk about a point charge with an atomic orbital. The location is the probability distribution in the orbital.

Caldazar did a great job. I’m mostly just giving you it in my words.

Interesting. But just to confirm, the electrons are “smeared” throughout the inside the balloon? The diagrams never seem to mention this.

How can the “real” shape of silver be round, though, when its highest energy electrons are 4d?

So the 3d are adding inside of the 4s? No, that doesn’t seem to make sense to me, but I’m conflicted. If the 3d are of similar distance to those of 3s, aren’t they inside the 4s? But if they’re higher energy than 4s, aren’t they outside 4s?

Man, none of this ever came up in my classes. But this year my AP kids are fixating on this and are doing the toddler “but why?” about everything.

Could it be that if the electrons fill the inside of the shell, the s orbitals give more room to approach the nucleus, and therefore are lower energy than the next d subshell?

Does anyone have any idea of why the orbitals are those funky shapes, especially with that “balloon in a doughnut” one in d?

To the extent that the balloons represent anything, and to the extent that the electrons are smeared to begin with.

It has to do with the standing wave patterns you can get on a sphere. If you scatter sand on a drumhead and then beat the drum, some parts of the drumhead will move up and down, and other parts will stay still, and the sand will stay in the spots where it stays still. Depending on how and where you hit the drum, you can get all sorts of patterns in this way (YouTube animation). The electron orbitals are like that, except instead of being waves of motion of a drumhead, the wave is the electron itself, and instead of being on a circular drumhead, they’re on a sphere.

Radial distance as given by the principal quantum number n is only one element of a electron’s state in an atom. The shape of the orbital (s, p, d, etc…), magnetic quantum number, and quantum spin also play a role in determining energy levels. So for instance, an electron in a 3s orbital is at a lower energy state than in a 3d orbital, despite the fact that both electrons would, on average, be found at the same distance away from the nucleus. The shape of the d orbital contributes to a higher energy state. You can think about it in terms of the ability of an electron to get closer to the nucleus, but remember that the electron is really being modeled as a wave, not a point charge. It’s the overall nature of the electron’s wavefunction that determines the energy level.

The 4s and 3d orbitals are actually rather close in energy, and other factors such as electron spin play a part in determining the overall energy states of the outer shell electrons. For example:

Titanium: 1s2,2s2, 2p6,3s2,3p6,4s2,3d2
Vanadium: 1s2,2s2,2p6,3s2,3p6,4s2,3d3
Chromium: 1s2,2s2,2p6,3s2,3p6,4s1,3d5 (not 4s2,3d4)

Apparently in Chromium, it is a lower energy situation for the electron to reside in an empty 3d orbital than it is to pair up in a half-full 4s orbital.

The electron orbital energy levels come from experimental observation. The quantum mechanics, the wavefunctions, and the resulting pictorial representations of the electron orbitals are models that attempt to describe the observed energy levels.

I always heard it pronounced “de BROY lee” in physics lectures. But, I haven’t heard it pronounced very often or by very many people.

Well, it’s been over 25 years since I took chemistry or quantum mechanics, but isn’t there a non-zero probability of an electron being at any arbitrary position anywhere in the universe? If so, what do the probability clouds really tell us? If not, where did I get such a crazy idea…

Yes, but they’re much more likely to be some places than others. The standard shapes you see drawn for electron orbitals are such that there’s a 90% chance that the electron will be somewhere inside that shape.

*NOTE: I forwarded it to this question to my son who’s a theoretical quantum physical chemist.

No, I don’t understand half of what he said either.*

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*I went to a local tutor last Saturday to ask some of these questions, but though she gets good grades in her college chem classes, these were things that had never really come up.

Atoms are often depicted as being basically round, but the shapes of the actual orbitals are mostly not. I’m assuming you’ve seen diagrams of p or d orbitals.

  1. Are all orbitals in “shell 4” really of a similar energy? If so, why do they fill so far apart, like the 4s and the 4d? Isn’t the energy shell number really more of a bookkeeping method?*

In the ideal one-electron atom, such as Hydrogen, positronium, or He+, all orbitals of shell N are exactly the same energy. Thus the hydrogen 2p is exactly the same energy as the hydrogen 2s.

In a multi-electron atom this is not true. First electron repulsions raise the energy of any shell already occupied. Thus although the Carbon 2px, 2py, and 2pz are in the same energies when empty, the electrons preferentially singly occupy shells. Second, there is an energy called exchange. This comes from pure quantum mechanics and raises the energies of antiparallel spin. In other words, if the first p in carbon is spin up, chances are the second is also. Together those two effects cause something called Hund’s Rule.

The last effect is one called electron screening. Electrons orbiting behind another shell do not experience the full nuclear attraction as they are being repelled by the electron in their way. Subshells with higher order angular momentum have an average distance from the nucleus greater than those of lower order. The 2p orbital shoots out beyond the 2s for example. Because this orbital is extending through an already occupied orbital, it is destabilized by the screening. Classically, the same effect happens when you stick a magnet oriented the wrong way in between two magnets that attract. They don’t stick together as strongly, because the magnet in the middle exerts a force that is pushing them apart. “Similarly”, the repulsion of an inner electron forces the outer electron to spend more time in the farther extent of the orbit, although, in the quantum world, my professors would kill me for making such a statement. This lowers the attractive forces of those upper level electrons, and it raises the energy level of the higher subshells. The 3d electrons are so screened by the 3s and particularly the 3p electrons that the energy level is bumped above the 4s. In an ion however, where the nuclear charge is greater, the s electrons are often emptied first, as the loss of an entire shell is a more favorable configuration than some s and some d.

There are also relativistic contractions dealing with the electrons in higher order elements “orbiting” so fast, that they approach the speed of light. This “contracts” certain shells and make it harder to ionize electrons from them. Thus thallium often has a +1 state, where it loses its p electron, but not its s. Relativistic contraction is somewhat complicated, and predicting it is a matter for upper level inorganic.

2. Do the electrons fill the entire space of the orbital, or do the stay close to the surface of the “balloon” (as the orbitals are often kind of shown)? Her book seemed to show that they fill the space.

Whether an electron fills space or occupies the surface of a balloon is a difficult thing to say in quantum mechanics. An orbital is a line of isoprobability, so for example an electron in the 1s state has a 90% probability of being somewhere in the 1s orbital. In that sense electrons fill space. We can go further and say that there is more of a chance it is in this part or that part. But it’s not really filling space in the same way that ketchup fills a bottle.

*3. Her book also said that the reason the 4s orbital fill before the 3d is that it “allows closer penetration of the electron to the vicinity of the nucleus.” Why is that? *

This is as I said. If you integrate a distance function across the 4s and 3d, you will find that the 4s electron is closer to the nucleus on average than the 3d electron. This doesn’t mean that the 4s orbital is actually closer, but it does mean there is more likely to be interference between the 3d electron and electrons from more inner orbitals. So the screening will be higher.

4. Are all these orbitals intersecting each other? The 4p must be running through all fouelonr s orbitals, just for one example.

You are quite right. Orbitals intersect. But the electrons don’t crash into each other.

5. Are electrons considered to be point charges that have variable paths, or are they so small that the de Broglie wave function literally makes their location spread out? I thought the wave function meant that the point charge had a variable path and that the “charge cloud” nomenclature was a way of describing it in practical terms, as that’s how it acts in human perception.

Both are true. An electron is a point charge in that it doesn’t have any physical volume. Experiments designed to measure the “Cross-section” of an electron report that they take up as little space as could possibly be described.

However a moving electron is quite literally smeared over an area. One can do a position measurement on it and nail down where it is, but trying to measure any property afterwards will smear out the electron again. This is not just a human perception thing. Electrons are waves. We can refract and focus them just like light or sound waves. And they interfere with each other and form ripple patterns on screens, like water does on a pond. The charge cloud is what an electron physically does. It is physically tangible.

At the same time if I bounce particles off of it, they will interact with the electron in the charge cloud as if it were a point particle. Quantum Physics is disconcerting.

  1. How do Americans pronounce de Broglie? Even the internet has failed me on this one.

Something like Dee Bray. French is weird.

It might also be worthwhile to note that when talking about a multi-electron atom, the whole idea of independent orbitals and independent electrons goes out the window.

The “orbital” concept is an approximation to the actual n-electron wavefunction which must obey the correct identical particle symmetry.

As for silver being a sphere, I believe the total angular momentum for the ground state is J=0 (an s-state).

I’ve always pronounced it De-BROAG-lee. I assume my teachers in high school and university pronounced it this way, although now I’m starting to wonder.

Of course I’m Canadian…