Chrysler Turbine Car - Wikipedia Chrysler designed a turbine car ,and had them running around Detroit streets in 1962-3. I am not sure why they quit it but it was cool to see them driving around. They did not sound like a car .
Honestly the disingenuousness is from your side. There is a diesel automatic Focus sold in Europe. We know what its fuel economy is. It is not 60 mpg on the US cycle. I would be 35 city/47 hwy. If they brought a European diesel automatic over that is what they might consider bringing, not by creating an automatic that doesn’t exist from a different model lower powered model. That imaginary car is not comparable to the Ford Focus that sells in America. Or to the Volt.
The diesel you listed is also sold as a manual so we know the difference in mileage between manual and automatic and I adjusted my figures accordingly. We’re discussing high mileage alternatives so the engine to compare is the 1.6L diesel and not the 2.0L diesel.
You’re right, at 240 lbs of torque the UK Focus could tow the Volt around all day long.
Anyway. Yes, there likely are cars that exist that could get 60 mpg plus and cost half as much as the Volt. An automatic Ford Focus does not exist that does that right now, even in the European market. The deisel Focus automatic that does exist, does not do that. But you can imagine one. Fine. No, just converting to diesel would not easily double the fleet mileage. No the same model of the Focus as a diesel does not get double the mileage as the petrol version.
How many Volts will sell compared to a standard Ford Focus? You’re selling the idea of overpriced dreams (at taxpayer expense) that won’t make a difference.
And you keep saying the “diesel automatic that doesn’t exist” like it wouldn’t be an option if built in the states. It’s a bolt on option. You 're deliberately trying to win debate points instead of looking at the situation rationally.
As I said before, I like the Volt. I also like the Corvette. I and most Americans won’t be buying either because they cost too much. The $7,000 rebate is a bet on the wrong horse. It isn’t a good investment of tax money. There is nothing about the car that is technologically innovative and it is simply a bad idea given existing battery technology.
Debate requires that people not make shit up, like claiming that going diesel doubles fuel mileage. Making the mistake is understandable; digging in on it is not.
You do know that there has been a Federal Tax Credit for diesels - up to $3400 depending on the vehicle. Phasing out now for most because they are have sold enough.
And HEVs obviously got tax credits to help offset their extra cost until they got volume up. And the natural gas Civic gets a $4000 tax credit (starts at rouughly $9000 over the base Civic sedan). Investing in emerging energy technology is something ths country does to help it get out of the blocks.
The Focus in this country gets 25/35 with a manual and the UK diesel gets 52/69. That’s double. It has way more torque than the gas engine sold in the state.
Actually the Volt is costing more. The dealers are getting more than 2 k over list on pre orders. It is not getting a tax break because it needs it. it is because it is clean energy. We encourage those kind of things.
You have to get into the 21st century. This terrible idea that can not work, will be everywhere soon. Not just the Volt because they are only making 12 to 16 thou first year, but many manufacturers will offer them soon. They are cleaner and will be quiet. They are the future.
THEY ARE NOT COMPARABLE MODELS! Or on comparable test cycles.
The comparable automatic model in diesel gets 38% more mpg than the petrol one on the same test cycle. Which is a bigger fuel advantage for diesel than it usually gets. The comparable manual ones have a bigger spread but still not double.
And I am done with repeating this.
The 1.6L diesel gets 69 mpg on the highway. Unless all the roads in Europe are downhill with a tailwind you’re just going to have to deal with the fact that this engine gets twice the mileage of the one currently used in the US or provide your own calculations to show otherwise.
I’ve done my best to make corrections to my own calculations regarding the Volt and I invite you to do the same with the 1.6L Diesel start/stop engine. If you don’t want to grind numbers that’s fine but I don’t see a point discussing this further if you’re not going to make the attempt.
Great, the dealers can give the $2,000 back to the taxpayer who owns the company anyway.
Where on earth did you get that? Even the big 2.0L 40-something Euro MPG diesel only has 207 Ft.Lbs of torque. The de-tuned 1.6L diesel only makes 159 Ft.Lbs. Could you have mistook newton-meters for Ft. Lbs somewhere?
Plus, you are aware that electric motors generate can generate full power at zero RPM right? Diesels are good at making low end torque, but not as good as electrics!
But you clearly haven’t. The European MPG figures are notoriously optimistic and the US ones are (since they revised them a few years back) very conservative. Sure a diesel Focus could get into the 60’s in 55-mph no-traffic highway driving, but so can a TDI Golf. The actual number in the window in that Focus is going to be much closer to the Golf, like I mentioned above probably in the low 40’s.
Either you don’t understand that MPG isn’t some absolute number, or you are willfully ignoring this.
Yes, I meant to correct that to 177 ft lbs of torque.
Yes. Would you care to guess what would happen if you towed anything with an electric motor Volt versus a diesel? The 1.6L Diesel will tow 1300 kg or 2866 lbs. Translate that to a car full of people.
You can argue the combined is optimistic but highway miles will show what the car is capable of.
this is the average listed on a European site for the TDI Golf. * Test average 44.2 mpg Test best/worst 49.7 / 21.1. compared to the Focus in the UK of 74.2 combined.
That’s a 68% difference.
Is this really that hard to understand? The 74.2 is the official government rating of the focus. The 44.2 is what that particular car reviewer happened to get during his road tests of the golf. The official government rating (which is listed on that page!) is 58.9 for the Golf (like I said, the Euro ratings are very optimistic). And the Golf has the fairly powerful 2.0L TDI engine, while the Focus is that anemic detuned 1.6L.
To start with there is nothing anemic about 109 hp and 177 lbs of torque. It tops out at 119 mph. Applying the difference in the cite Reduces the 74.2 mpg to a 55 mpg average and that converts to 46.4 for US gallons. Again, the US car gets 25/35.
I know it is confusing that there are three engines of the same displacement offered. The 60 MPG 1.6 L is the 109 HP one. The 74 MPG one is only a 90 HP/159 Ft.Lb.
Okay, maybe it’s not like 70’s VW Rabbit diesel anemic, but it’s still significantly slower than any other engine you’ve compared it to. The point is that the way the diesel Focus achieves signifcantly better mileage is only partly that it’s a diesel-- it’s at least as much and probably more so because it’s just a much slower car. This is because the same kind of buyer who is willing to pay more for better mileage by splurging on the diesel is also going to be willing to sacrifice performance for mileage.
According to this site the 74 mpg is 109 ps (OK it converts to 107.7 hp).
It’s not a race car but for $20,000 less it does nicely compared to the Volt.
I don’t know if you can infer it or not but the start/stop version adds about 3 1/2 mpg which converts down to about 3.
Perhaps not quite “anemic”, but you really cannot compare it to the Volt’s “149 horsepower and 273 pound-feet of torque.”. Okay it’s a bit better than an Aveo (108 hp and 105 pound-feet of torque). Meanwhile, the Volt has the same torque (albeit way less hp) as the V-6 Camero. (“The V6 is rated at an even 300 hp and 273 pound-feet of torque.”)
They’d be some big folk and I don’t think they’d fit in too well.
GreasyJack, he’s going to keep insisting on comparing apples to mangos and kiwis rather than understand that the European test cycle is not the same as the American one which is not the same as any particular driver’s real world experience.