Which car am I describing: it has an internal combustion engine and an electric motor that are integrated together with a planetary gear transmission and a battery pack used for a portion of the driving.
Hate to be a buttinsky, but the major difference is that the Volt is capable of driving on electricity alone. 40 miles per charge, that’s it, but there you go. Plus all momentum is generated via an (significantly more efficient than an ICE) electric motor. The Prius and every other hybrid to date AFAIK only gets a boost from batteries charged regeneratively (or through engine drag or solar panels I suppose). Ask ‘where do you plug it in?’ and only the Volt has an answer. And the Leaf, etc.
I don’t especially like the Volt myself. I like the electric motor and range extender, but otherwise I think it carries too many doo-dads driving up its sticker price. But Magiver, when you say the Volt is not economical, are you including its capacity to integrate with a smart grid and literally generate an income in your calculations?
Some rag called Motor Trend seems to think highly of the Volt.
You don’t need to put gas in a Prius?
This pretty much meets what I would think of as an EV. The fact that it can actually do more doesn’t take away that particular label IMHO.
Crystal ball car of the year. They haven’t sold a single one and it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread. Outstanding. I think they should also give it the Nobel Peace Prize.
Yes, it takes regular unlike the Volt which takes premium.
Automobile Magazine’s crystal ball likes it too. FWIW. Means as much to me as Leno’s opinion, which aint much.
What Magiver is referencing, I think, is the fact that the Volt is not really a true pure EREV. The battery is always the main power source but in some circumstances (high speeds) the ICE contributes electricity to the traction motor. I disagree that such means it is “technically identical to a Prius” but have no interest in arguing the point.
when I said it was technically identical to a Prius I meant exactly that. It uses the same concept of ice, electrical motor, sun gear transmission and batteries with an emphasis on additional batteries. It was a pointless exercise of reinventing the wheel at a time when the price of wheels makes it impractical.
They should have introduced additional batteries to their lineup of hybrids when the cost and functionality justified it.
No offense, but ITSM you are ignoring facts to maintain your position. The Prius is an ICE vehicle that conserves a little energy through regenerative braking. The Volt is an EV that recharges its batteries with gasoline- if needed. It is quite a difference.
Do you work for an oil company or something? Do you have a vested interest in the US remaining shackled to foreign oil?
You are missing the point. It is technologically identical to the Prius. There is nothing new or innovative about the car. You can buy a Prius and convert it to a plug in. Because battery technology is not there yet it is way more expensive and therefore is not economically viable. It won’t sell enough to matter. We might as well give $40,000 rebates on Tesla cars.
If you kept up with the thread you would know that I proposed government backing of something that would take make us energy independent unlike this subsidized train wreck. Promoting a car that is not financially viable is a waste of taxpayer money. It’s simple math. We’re going to pay GE $90 million dollars to save money. Let them spend the money if it’s viable.
I’d like to see some numbers on a converted Prius. As I understand it, the electric motor is underpowered such that even with battery power you need the ICE for propulsion over 25mph or so. Is the Volt new? Go to a car lot and ask the guy “Where do you plug it in?” for every car he shows you. He’ll soon ask you to leave. In a few months he’ll show you a Volt. Sure it’s new… though ev prototypes date back to the 1850’s if that’s what you are getting at. Anyway, the Volt isn’t the only car to yield a rebate in this program, no? Are you cool with the Leaf?
As for the costs of subsidizing ev’s, you gotta realize that there is a much larger program out there of which this is just a part. From this article:
Did Una say we’d need 1.5GW per year to keep up with a national ev fleet? Well we are already there, and the commitment is there to support a dramatic increase in alternative generation capacity and the smart grids to go with it. Add it up: green power + smart grids +… ev’s is what it takes to complete the equation. Those are being subsidized along with the rest as part of a whole package. You don’t like the Volt, you keep saying things like ‘it isn’t time’, ‘this isn’t the car’, etc., but this is how it is going to be. Subsidizing these cars reduces dependence on foreign oil while also being the equivalent (en masse) of subsidizing utility-scale storage. I’m with everyone else that the next generation of ev’s will be an improvement, and you gotta start somewhere to get there.
You got me there. This thread seems neo-zombie to me, but that could be because I haven’t exactly been a regular around here lately. I’ll look for it, maybe you can post a link.
Sorry you don’t like GE benefiting from this. I can see how you might view this program as a big corporate circle-jerk. Personally I think it serves to ramp up ev production, which I am confident in time will bring the costs in line with something you are more comfortable with.
But the Volt is financially viable. What about it’s ability to generate an income? Why not let them spend the money? Because the clock is ticking, and we can’t afford to allow ‘no green tech’ to become our national default state, that’s why.
The Volt is not financially viable compared to other hybrids or diesels. The batteries are an additional expense to the driving system and a very high expense at that. The cost cannot be recouped. It’s as simple as that.
All this hand waving “it’s going to get better” is the same point I’ve been making. It’s no different than a Prius other than the additional batteries. When the cost comes down, add more batteries to the GM equivalent of the Prius. Until then, promote cars people can afford.
This makes sense. Yep, the thing sure is expensive. Practically luxury car expensive. Other hybrids and diesels cost less (except probably the Cadillac SUV hybrids).
For one thing, I don’t think the Volt’s staggering price tag is all because of the batteries. There are a lot of geegaws on the thing. I’d like it better with manual windows, for instance. It’s nice that the seats are heated, but frankly when I decide to shop for a new car I will prefer one without heated seats, and minus the cost of heated seats.
But this is the point of yours that is seeming dogmatic to me. Why can’t the cost be recouped? Again, if you plug this thing into a smart grid it will generate an income. Over the years the total could be significant. How is that cost “not recouped” in that case?
Your claims about the Prius also seem a little dogmatic to me, but maybe I am just not seeing where you are coming from.
- The Volt, for now, is the sole occupant of its market niche (unless I am just ignorant of course). It is a true ev that can recharge its batteries with fuel.
Contrast that with the Prius! 2. The Prius is not a true ev. Even modified with better batteries, it is still AFAIK not a true ev, as the electric motor will only take the thing up to 25 mph or so. After that it is a hybrid ICE vehicle. With a void warranty if you’ve modified it.
Considering 1. and 2., how can you say the Volt is no different than the Prius other than additional batteries? The primary difference is: all momentum provided by an electric motor in the Volt, and not the Prius.
While I think it is extremely clever, there seems to be something inelegant about the kind of hybrid motor you find in a Prius. I prefer the full-size electric motor found in the Volt. That’s just me- I want to drive an actual ev. I think that is moving in the right direction: as battery tech improves, perhaps the recharge motor can be diminished or eliminated.
Promote cars people can afford? I hear ya! I’m not promoting the Volt. I promote GM building an affordable ev around the Volt’s drivetrain. Better still: Ford does it. Keep the electric motor but get rid of all the glittering bullshit.
I’m not sure but I think the heated seats are an attempt at heating people efficiently. I’m not sure how much the bells and whistles cost considering they’re rapidly becoming standard on non-luxury cars.
The Lincoln Continental Hybrid is over $7,000 cheaper. This is a luxury car. You can buy a lot of gas for that.
The Volt, from an engineering point, is no different from a Prius. Yes they mixed the tranny a little differently to favor the extra batteries but it is the same setup. the Volt uses a larger electric motor and a slightly smaller ICE. From a platform point of view, it’s a reconfigured hybrid with more batteries. It’s GOING to be a useful car when batteries catch up, but not now. I’ve been watching fuel efficient technology since the 70’s. I’d be tinkering with my own car as a hybrid had I not been laid off. It’s not that I don’t like the car. I do.
Ford seems to have a better handle on product mix. Their hybrid Escape was one of the few in the industry that paid for itself in fuel savings. The new Lincoln Hybrid is being introduced for the same cost as the regular version. Heck, their base Mustang is a V6 that gets 31 mpg on the highway and has 310 hp. Dang.
The Volt is new technology and opens a door . It is not cheap but tax breaks make it reasonable. It is far from Cadillac at 32 K. I hope it succeeds wildly. It is the direction we should go . I wish it had come out 6 months ago. Now it gets driven in the winter. I wish it looked more like the Tesla. It looks too much like other cars.
No, it’s not.
Standard, shmandard. In this brave new world, it’s my way or the highway! 
Yeah. At $7 per gallon, you could buy 1000 gallons. Careful with those Continentals though, they can be very dangerous. If the thing actually gets 100mpg you’ll be doing pretty good. Not quite, but still, Lincoln’s first-ever hybrid – the 2011 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid – is now officially the most fuel-efficient luxury sedan in America with an EPA-certified 41 mpg rating in city driving and 36 mpg on the highway.
I wonder if you can plug it in and drive it on an empty tank. The Prius I know you cannot- it doesn’t plug in.
Yes it is!
The Volt is driven entirely by an electric motor. The Prius is driven by an electric motor, yes, but mainly generates momentum through its ICE, er, part of itself. Run out of gas and your Prius is stalled, unless you can get some teenagers to push it while you punch the brakes to charge the battery :rolleyes:
Run out of gas with the Volt and… AFAIK you can plug it in and then drive it down the highway for 40 miles. So you see, it can deliver “gas mileage” of /DIV 0 Error/, while the hybrids cannot.
Compare. From an engineering point of view, they are different.
Yah the Volt has an ICE recharge motor. But look- a recharge motor is really the best available improvement for ICE engines at this stage of the game anyway. A recharge motor can be designed to run at a single speed- the whole thing becomes simpler. Heck, it could be a turbine, or some other fuel-based generator. In any case, these dedicated recharge ICE engines I am confident will prove more efficient than the old-fashioned, momentum-producing ICE engines of the past 
Yah, I really want an ev to pay for itself in fuel savings too. But consider that Volkswagen and Toshiba said then they were planning the development of battery systems with a high specific energy density for the next generation of electric vehicles. The fact that these batteries can sustain their performance after 10,000 deep discharges changes the equation. You don’t like the price of the Volt battery. It’s 16Kwh and it costs like $8000. Obviously these first-gen Volt batteries aren’t the type that can withstand 10,000 deep discharges, or they wouldn’t bother limiting the output to 8kwh. So! The next generation could achieve the same storage capacity for half the battery! Next one costs $4,000! That was so much like Moore’s Law I can’t stand it! :mad:
Anyway, an electric automobile motor ought to be durable enough that it could be passed down as a family heirloom. Maybe you have an old ICE car getting passed down too, who knows, it happens. But these electric motors are very elegant in design, and practically never fall apart. The rest of the car will fall away first. Everything is simpler about generating a magnetic force and directing it to the wheels, compared to drilling oil, refining it, then setting it on fire in your 8-cylinder, 16 valve, oil-pan carrying, head gasket bursting, cam-shaft wearing, oil-lifter torquing, molybdenum leaking rod throwing ICE contraption that everyone used to be so enamored about. No, the electric auto motor really ought to be with your family for a very long time.
Again on the cheaper theme: In China, the F3DM is priced at 150,000 yuan, or $22,000, and BYD expects it to sell for a similar amount in the U.S. (I know it has been mentioned before, but it bears repeating.) This car operates on the same type of platform as the Volt, only with closer attention to economy. At $22,000, assuming there is nothing wrong with the thing, I think you could reasonably expect to pay back the premium with fuel savings. And then all of the other cool things I’ve mentioned, too!
the Volt is NOT driven entirely by electric motor. It’s set up to be the primary drive but it can’t handle the full range of speed. The ICE kicks in around 70 mph. GM is being disingenuous when they say the ICE is just a generator. And there’s nothing stopping you from charging a Prius to get it’s full charge distance. You’ll have to dog it because the ICE will kick in at a much lower speed. The Volt will run at twice the speed before the ICE kicks in.
Well lets not get carried away. Run out of gas in a Volt and you’ll wait 4-8 hrs to get that 40 miles of heaven.
Just a different scaling of the same Prius parts under the hood.
And when those batteries make it into the Volt and it sells for $25,000 it will worth it’s purchase price. Done.
You have more faith in electric motors than I have. Give me an old-school motor from the 50’s over motors built today. 3 drops of oil once a year and their happy. At least they will be maintenance free until they crap out but the motors in these cars are not some off the shelf puppy that can be dropped in like a furnace motor. Look at a cut-away on these things. It will be like replacing an expensive transmission when they crap out and they still have an ICE motor with all it’s little parts. You’re not gaining a maintenance free electric motor, you’re gaining an expensive part to fix in addition to a standard ICE. The transmissions should be bullet proof but the computers driving them will be the weak link.
Cite?
From wiki:
At speeds between 30 to 70 miles per hour (48 to 110 km/h) and if the battery is depleted, the internal combustion engine may engage (via a clutch) to assist the traction motor to drive the output, improving performance and boosting high-speed efficiency by 10 to 15 percent.