Chicago Public Markets

[palindromemordnilap]

When Navy Pier was as crumbling heap and real estate firm U.S. Equities was retained to come up with a workable plan for bring people there, one of chairman Robert Wislow’s ideas was to bring an indoor market to the Pier. That idea never took root (I’m not sure it was ever floated publicly–Wislow told me personally).

In recent years, Ogilvie Transportation Center (North Western Station) has been trying to get some additional retail and retaurants out of an underused space beneath the tracks. They don’t seem to have gained any traction. If the space is large enough this seems like an ideal place for an indoor market: easy access to Metra and the highway, plenty of parking nearby. I’m sure I’m not the first person to think of this, so either it’s not workable or someone just doesn’t want to do it.

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Link to SD Chicago column: http://chicago.straightdope.com/sdc20090226.php

[Chronos]

I was pretty tickled to see this question show up on SD Chicago, since I’m a Clevelander by birth, and literally went to kindergarten a couple of blocks away from the West Side Market. We never shopped there much, but I can make at least one addendum:

Definitions first. A public market generally has a permanent building, is open year round, sells at retail (some do wholesale business too), and features multiple independent food vendors. That makes it different from ordinary supermarkets on the one hand and seasonal outdoor farmer’s markets on the other. An attractive building adds to a market’s charm, no question. But it also increases the risk.

While the West Side Market does have a permanent building, where most of the meats and preserved foods are sold, there’s also an area outside under awnings where seasonal produce is sold. So it’s not entirely unlike a farmer’s market, either.

[maxxy]

Cleveland had a Central Market that survived on the outskirts of downtown until the mid-80s. In the end, it succumbed to the same problems that now beset the East Side Market.

The East Side Market suffers from the reputation of its neighborhood, and from the fact that the West Side Market has drained away most of what remains of the small food businesses that could populate a market.

The West Side Market is somewhat inconvenient – it closes at 4 on Mondays and Wednesdays, at a not-much-more-helpful 6 on Fridays. That’s why it tends to be packed on Saturdays – when, again, it closes at 6.

While it is a great place, when it’s open, there are a variety of factors that keep it from being more successful – particularly the weakness of corporate activity downtown, just across the river. That means not much weekday lunch-hour traffic. And Cleveland’s downtown, while it has a couple of small, thriving entertainment districts and one surviving residential district, is generally avoided by suburbanites, so few people outside the immediate vicinity go to the West Side Market just because they happened to be in the neighborhood – they go there as a destination or not at all.

I’ve been to public markets in France and other parts of Europe. They do well there. But then, so do small butcher shops and bakeries and so on, in cities where pedestrian commuting is much more common and large supermarkets are much rarer because they’re tough to squeeze into neighborhoods that have been in place for centuries.

[GCMED]

Cecil/Mike:

As Executive Director of Green City’s Market, I certainly echo your thoughts: Chicago should have a year round farmer’s market. A native of St. Louis, I grew up shopping and visiting Soulard Market, just south of the downtown area. Over the years, Soulard Market has become an anchor of the community, establishing a neighborhood identity where people live and work. It’s also a culinary destination in many ways between the Market itself and the dining options available in the nearby area.

I’ve dreamed of a similar market here in Chicago. Imagine my surprise when I moved here some 14 years ago and was shocked to find that we didn’t have a market like Soulard (or Cleveland, Seattle, et al) in this world class city. But we do have an incredible variety of farmer’s markets spread throughout the area including Green City Market in Lincoln Park.

While Green City Market has become known as a seasonal destination, our organization has taken the first step towards developing a year round presence. This was the inaugural year and we are experiencing record crowds – 2,000 shoppers joining us recently at The Peggy Notebaert Nature Museum. The Market is packed and it’s clear that Chicago wants and needs us. We’ve developed a committee to look into strategic next steps and are dedicated to making this happen, despite the challenges Cecil intelligently points out. Green City Market is committed to this initiative and taking the lead to add a year round market for Chicagoans to enjoy.

So I say stay tuned for more. Come to Green City Market – there’s not a better place to visit on a cold, chilly Saturday morning. The next Indoor Market, at The Notebaert, will take place Saturday, March 7. And watch for updates in our newsletter and on our website, www.chicagogreencitymarket.org.

Lyle Allen
Executive Director
Green City Market

[thatwillguy]

May I direct your attention to the St Lawrence market in downtown Toronto which is alive and flourishing? My family has maintained a vegetable stall there for over 110 years. Where else can you find crawfish for your jambalaya or a fish seller who really will “cheerfully” de-scale a fish for you?

[Ed_Zotti]

@palindromemordnilap

In recent years, Ogilvie Transportation Center (North Western Station) has been trying to get some additional retail and retaurants out of an underused space beneath the tracks. They don’t seem to have gained any traction. If the space is large enough this seems like an ideal place for an indoor market: easy access to Metra and the highway, plenty of parking nearby. I’m sure I’m not the first person to think of this, so either it’s not workable or someone just doesn’t want to do it.

They’re working on it; see:

http://www.metramarket.com/

Long shot given the current climate, of course.

[Allan_Mellis]

The current site of Children’s Memorial Hospital in Chicago, which will be redeveloped in 2012, would make a spectacular place for a public market with underground parking, outdoor cafes, ice cream shop, chocolate shop, butcher baker and candle stick maker. If you agree please call Alderman Vi Daley at 773-327-9111

[GoneTheSun]

I take issue with something that Cecil wrote in this column, and one of the remarks made by maxxy.

First Cecil’s bit - cities are far, far more efficient than rural or suburban living. This is one of the reasons why Europe beats the snot out of the US in energy efficiency. If we did more urban planning in the US, cities would be even more efficient and comfortable to live in than they are now - but that is another topic.

The main reason that such markets and urban shopping haver greatly diminished to disappeared in the US is automobiles and the American fascination with the single-family home. Much of this is geography, but there are other aspects to this as well.

Regarding maxxy’s comment - most European cities infrastructure is not any or much older than that in the US. Cities such as Boston, New York, Detroit, Philadelphia are all well over 300 years old, and have many aspects of European city design and 17th, 18th, and 19th century concepts of urban planning. Age of cities is no excuse for lack of urban planning, in fact it should be quite the opposite.

The main reason European cities have remained intact, despite devastating fires and wars that have ravaged much of their older structures and infrastructure is simple - they didn’t have an abundance of cheap land as we have had in the US. They therefore had to plan to keep their cities intact, plan to keep their agriculture intact, plan to design their trains and public transit intact, and limit the amount of wasted space spent on roads and devoted to automobiles.

Markets were the shopping malls of their time, and can continue to work well in urban centers, if they are planned for by cities. The formula is no different than an urban shopping mall, despite what Cecil would have you believe. The main reason newly planned or constructed markets are high priced is land costs and rents and lack of planning or support by cities, states, or federal governments. Those quaint markets in Europe? Let’s not forget how heavily subsidized small agriculture remains in Europe. It is amazing what you can do with a tax dollar when you don’t fritter away half your budget on the world’s biggest and most military (but that’s straying away from the topic at hand.)

Oh yes, and despite what he says, people haven’t forgotten how to butcher meat or make sausages. He must think we are sitting around our homes, gnawing on whole beef shanks. Those guys standing behind the meat counter at your local supermarket are butchers, Cecil. While the number of butchers per capita has been in decline for over a century, so has every other job related to food and agriculture. You don’t have to be an Italian immigrant to have a meat market. That doesn’t mean there arent plenty of well-trained butchers (or other agri-merchants) available to start businesses if the opportunity were there.

[Ed_Zotti]

@GoneTheSun

I take issue with something that Cecil wrote in this column, and one of the remarks made by maxxy.

First Cecil’s bit - cities are far, far more efficient than rural or suburban living. This is one of the reasons why Europe beats the snot out of the US in energy efficiency. If we did more urban planning in the US, cities would be even more efficient and comfortable to live in than they are now - but that is another topic.

Interesting topic, although I agree it’s too complicated to get into now. In general I agree with Cecil. Believe me, I’m a big-city guy to the tips of my toes, but I’ve seen little to suggest they’re vastly more efficient than a reasonably dense suburb. Mass transit, for example, is somewhat more energy-efficient on a passenger-mile basis than cars, but it’s not 10 times more efficient, as you might think. Varies with the city, too. In Chicago, the energy efficiency of cars and mass transit is roughly at parity, according to one study I saw.

The main reason that such markets and urban shopping haver greatly diminished to disappeared in the US is automobiles and the American fascination with the single-family home. Much of this is geography, but there are other aspects to this as well.

Regarding maxxy’s comment - most European cities infrastructure is not any or much older than that in the US. Cities such as Boston, New York, Detroit, Philadelphia are all well over 300 years old, and have many aspects of European city design and 17th, 18th, and 19th century concepts of urban planning. Age of cities is no excuse for lack of urban planning, in fact it should be quite the opposite.

Of course not, but it’s a question of what you want to plan for. I like high density, but most people don’t. In any case, you don’t need all that much density to support a public market. LA is the auto city par excellence, but it supports the Farmers Market just fine - everyone drives there.

The main reason European cities have remained intact, despite devastating fires and wars that have ravaged much of their older structures and infrastructure is simple - they didn’t have an abundance of cheap land as we have had in the US. They therefore had to plan to keep their cities intact, plan to keep their agriculture intact, plan to design their trains and public transit intact, and limit the amount of wasted space spent on roads and devoted to automobiles.

Land costs are part of it. Per capita auto ownership and gas costs are another part - gas is way more expensive in Europe than it is here, as you know. You can’t discount tradition and sentiment, either - a lot of people just like the old European city centers, just as Chicagoans like downtown and lakefront Chicago. But that’s fairly rare among U.S. cities. Downtown Cleveland isn’t a major draw, for example. Downtown LA is just one center among many in Los Angeles.

Markets were the shopping malls of their time, and can continue to work well in urban centers, if they are planned for by cities. The formula is no different than an urban shopping mall, despite what Cecil would have you believe. The main reason newly planned or constructed markets are high priced is land costs and rents and lack of planning or support by cities, states, or federal governments. Those quaint markets in Europe? Let’s not forget how heavily subsidized small agriculture remains in Europe. It is amazing what you can do with a tax dollar when you don’t fritter away half your budget on the world’s biggest and most military (but that’s straying away from the topic at hand.)

Oh, markets are a lot different from shopping malls. Talk to Larry Lund sometime. They don’t depend on nationally franchised stores, most obviously. They depend on small, one-of-a-kind family-owned businesses. Totally different business model. Quite a few public markets have been undertaken by local governments; many have failed or putter along at a marginal level. Not saying it can’t be done, but it’s a tough business. To think otherwise is naive.

Oh yes, and despite what he says, people haven’t forgotten how to butcher meat or make sausages. He must think we are sitting around our homes, gnawing on whole beef shanks. Those guys standing behind the meat counter at your local supermarket are butchers, Cecil. While the number of butchers per capita has been in decline for over a century, so has every other job related to food and agriculture. You don’t have to be an Italian immigrant to have a meat market. That doesn’t mean there arent plenty of well-trained butchers (or other agri-merchants) available to start businesses if the opportunity were there.

Might be nice to think so, but it’s just not true. Again, talk to Larry Lund - he spoke about having to train vendors. Even supermarkets don’t do that much butchering in-store anymore; the stuff is mostly delivered prepackaged. Markets are cool and fun, but to think that all we have to do is plan for them and they’ll spring into existence and thrive is silly.

[Bluffcityguy]

@Chronos

I was pretty tickled to see this question show up on SD Chicago, since I’m a Clevelander by birth, and literally went to kindergarten a couple of blocks away from the West Side Market. We never shopped there much, but I can make at least one addendum:
While the West Side Market does have a permanent building, where most of the meats and preserved foods are sold, there’s also an area outside under awnings where seasonal produce is sold. So it’s not entirely unlike a farmer’s market, either.

Sounds a bit like the Soulard Farmer’s Market in St. Louis. At least how it was the last time I was there, which was about 10 or so years ago. Things may have changed in the intervening years.

Cheers,

bcg

[PaulC22]

Milwaukee has a small public market in the Third Ward downtown. D.C. has a bigger, cooler one called Eastern Market east of the Capitol by a few blocks.

Also - Cecil is incorrect in saying that Trader Joes is pricey. We find their cheeses and other items to be a bargain compared to other shops.

[Bluffcityguy]

@PaulC22

Milwaukee has a small public market in the Third Ward downtown. D.C. has a bigger, cooler one called Eastern Market east of the Capitol by a few blocks.

Also - Cecil is incorrect in saying that Trader Joes is pricey. We find their cheeses and other items to be a bargain compared to other shops.

After all, Trader Joe’s is one of the few places you can get “Two Buck Chuck” (Charles Shaw wines, for the few of you who may never have heard of it; supposedly a very palatable wine for not a lot of money…).

Cheers,

bcg

[paytonc]

Pffft on Cecil’s cold water. New public markets have been built in Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Portland (Maine), and elsewhere in recent years. They thrive in lesser-still cities (c’mon, Columbus?), with much weaker food cultures and with equally stiff competition for the grocery dollar. No, they’re not gobsmackingly profitable, and yes, they take a lot of tender, loving care, but they exist and they’re regional treasures.

The MetraMarket space will include a “French Market,” which is a way of saying that the management there have leased a good amount of space to a manager (Bensidoun USA, which runs a few of the weekly neighborhood/suburban farmers markets) who will, in turn, sublet it to create something public market-like. We’ll see how that will turn out, if the thing ever actually happens. I agree that the West Loop seems like a reasonable location, close enough to downtown but easier to access and under-served by food retail. I personally had my eye on the Cook Brothers warehouse (Ashland & Fulton), as it’d tie into the energy of Randolph well, but that’s not to be.

[paytonc]

To address two of Ed’s points: Minneapolis’ Midtown Global Market has exceeded traffic projections despite being in a “bad” neighborhood (by local standards), outside downtown. Its lead developer is actually a small-business incubator that provides extensive training and support to the businesses therein. And it’s really cool!

Also, an “MPG” (strict fuel efficiency) rating for urban/suburban transportation modes ignores two crucial factors: walking (cycling, other non-motorized travel) is superbly fuel efficient but simply does not happen at lower densities; and city people travel shorter distances. Fewer miles at the same MPG = fewer gallons.