Claude Montana (the designer) copyrighted the name “Montana” and then tried to sue every entity who used Montana in the name of a product – including the State. Backed off, though; we were here first.
Ok, while I won’t pretend that I understood all of that, I got the general jist of it. I know, however, for a fact that Anheuser Busch couldn’t use the domain Shamu.com for a while, because someone else had registered it. Now by the above citings, shouldn’t they have been entilted to get that domain name even if someone else had it registered?
And of course Opal could always move the site to a hosting server that is outside the U.S.
I have a hard time understanding how a bussiness can have control not only over their actual name, but over any variation of that name. That just strikes me as wrong. I mean how do you draw that line?..what if it was St.8.ght.D0pe.com?...would that still be wrong?..Or Staiiigh.t.Dooop.com? How much different does it have to be?..And how long does a company have to persue a trademark infringment(sp)? Obviously the CR has know about Opal’s site for a while and they’re just now threatening her? Couldn’t it be argued by her that by not only knowing and allowing the site, but actually endorsing it here, they have relenquished their trademark already?..I don’t know…I think the whole damn thing is silly. Ya’ll have a good night…
Let me try and clarify this once and for all. We don’t have a problem with Opal’s site, the Teeming Millions Home Page. We do have a problem with her offering a service called “str8dope mail,” which infringes on our trademark. On Oct. 1 I wrote a letter to Opal explaining the Reader’s position:
*Opal, I hope you’ll excuse my bluntness. Your use of the name Straight Dope without our permission in connection with your E-mail service is a pretty clear case of trademark infringement. The fact that you spell it “str8dope mail” doesn’t really get you off the hook. Most potential users of your service will take “str8dope” to mean the Straight Dope by Cecil Adams. To the extent that they do, our ability to exploit the commercial value of our trademark is impaired. For example, should we ever decide to launch our own Web-based E-mail service, the prior existence of your service using our name will put us at a disadvantage.
Even more important, your use of the Straight Dope name without our permission will encourage others to think they can do the same. The nature of trademark law is such that if you don’t vigorously defend your rights you lose them. We will have a tough time preventing the Disneys of the world from using our trademark if they can point out that you’ve been doing it under our nose all along.
For these reasons we respectfully request that you change the name of your E-mail service and its Internet address to omit any reference to the Straight Dope, “str8dope,” or similar term. Furthermore, we request that you refrain from any future use of the names Straight Dope, Cecil Adams or variants thereof in a manner suggesting you own or control these registered marks.
Don’t get us wrong. We’re not trying to play the heavy here. We don’t object to your use of Cecil’s pet expression “Teeming Millions” or to the Teeming Millions Home Page. The difference between that case and this is that the Teeming Millions is a peripheral term we never trademarked, while the Straight Dope by Cecil Adams is a core part of our identity.
We hope you will be reasonable about this. We enjoy the Teeming Millions Home Page and would like to continue the generally positive relationship we have had up till now. We very much want to avoid getting embroiled in an expensive legal dispute. But please understand the difficult position you put us in. Your use of our name in this conspicuous manner is something we just can’t ignore. Please let me know what you decide.*
Opal got it into her head that we were asking her to remove every instance of the words “Straight Dope” from her site. As my letter makes reasonably plain, this was not our intent. We just wanted her to do something about the “str8dope mail” page. If she does that she can put the rest of the site back up with no objection from us. Running a website is thankless, time-consuming job and I can appreciate that Opal may think this is a good time to pull the plug on the TMHP permanently. If she does, however, it won’t be because of us.
“Got it into her head”? C’mon, Mr. Zotti, did the lawyers send her the letter in question or not? That’s where she “got it into her head” that all references needed to be deleted. Is the abstract of the legal letter she posted correct, or not? If it is, it’s a bit disingenuous to act like you can’t imagine where she got the idea that every reference had to go.
If your lawyers have exceeded what you wanted them to do, call them off and clarify the situation with OpalCat. If they have in fact done what you asked them to do, don’t present this as if they haven’t. IMO, you’re justified in doing whatever you feel is necessary to protect your trademark, but you owe it to OpalCat (and you’ll be better served in terms of covering your own ass, legally speaking) to explicitly set forth what is okay (if anything) and what is not. Then she can decide what she wants to do.
IMHO, Ed’s position is eminently reasonable. (Yes, you all read that right, and yes this is the real Melin typing that.) The problem with the email is a legitimate one, but note that Opal has indicated that she doesn’t have control over it (this is something I don’t understand, not being in possession of all the facts, but I accept what Opal says at face value.) Perhaps the Reader needs to identify who has the power to alter the email situation and send a letter invoking the trademark that way. Perhaps Opal has information as to who that person would be, and could provide that to the Reader to expedite matters.
Opal, you’ve got Ed posting on the board that he doesn’t have a problem with the use of TSD name in your website, as outlined above. Sounds like you could bring it back on line – if you want to, and we understand if you don’t – without a problem, then, and without having to do more than eliminate any references or links to the email.
Thanks for all that you do with that website – it helps create the community.
-Melin
OTOH, it may be more of a CYA tactic. If there’s a falling out between the SD and OpalCat, the CR doesn’t want the largest and most popular SD web site to suddenly become the largest anti-SD web site.
But, we’ll see…>>>
This may be the proverbial straw on the proverbial camel’s back . . .
SoxFan59
“Its fiction, but all the facts are true!”
That’s not where she got it into her head. After I wrote the letter cited above, which was about as clear as I could make it, Opal wrote me a long amusing rant including such phrases “Jesus Christ on a pogo stick” in which she accused me of wanting her to remove ever instance of the letters s, t, r, a, i, g, h … you get the idea. She has had this fixed idea in her mind since the beginning. I am at a loss to know how to explain it any better. When Mike Lenehan (who is not a lawyer, BTW, but the Reader’s executive editor) wrote his note, he assumed, obviously erroneously, that Opal understood the basic distinction we’re talking about. He assumed this because (1) I had CC’d him on the note to Opal in which I explained it, and (2) *we had been through this with Opal before, when she first launched the TMHP.*If after all this time Opal was still confused (and you will forgive me if in my heart of hearts I thought she was just being difficult), she could have written a one-sentence reply and gotten clarification. Instead she pulled down the entire TMHP site and posted the indignant note that’s up there now.
So, were we the bad guys in this? You’re entitled to your opinion, babe. But it sure doesn’t look that way to me.
[Note: This message has been edited by Ed Zotti]
[[IMHO, Ed’s position is eminently reasonable. (Yes, you all read that right, and yes this is the real Melin typing that.) The problem with the email is a legitimate one, but note that Opal has indicated that she doesn’t have control over it (this is something I don’t understand, not being in possession of all the facts, but I accept what Opal says at face value.) Perhaps the Reader needs to identify who has the power to alter the email situation and send a letter invoking the trademark that way. Perhaps Opal has information as to who that person would be, and could provide that to the Reader to expedite matters.
Opal, you’ve got Ed posting on the board that he doesn’t have a problem with the use of TSD name in your website, as outlined above. Sounds like you could bring it back on line – if you want to, and we understand if you don’t – without a problem, then, and without having to do more than eliminate any references or links to the email.]] Melin
I concur, and hope that Opalcat puts the site back when she can. As Cecil said, it kicks butt, and lord knows there are a lot of butts out there that need kicking.
Does this mean that “Cecil Adams” is a registered trademark? I guess Cecil ain’t real after all if that’s the case, 'less you’re allowed to trademark your own name.
“I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn’t.”
Look at the bottome of your screen. If it’s like mine you will see this
A hat with bells on is not funny, it is the jester underneath.
Let me try to make this easy so that Ed’s tiny little pinhead brain can understand. What I wrote to you was SARCASM. I did that because you were/are an asshole. We had ALREADY discussed the situation and I was trying to cooperate with you, but you STILL HOUNDED ME and started making legal threats. You’ll note that I did not take the site down then, because I knew what YOU, ED “the big idiot” ZOTTI meant.
When I DID take the site down was when someone higher up who I have never spoken with before wrote me a letter with DIFFERENT TERMS in it. To me it read very clearly, and I took it to mean that someone HIGHER UP THE PISSING POLE THAN ED had made the decision to not allow me to reference the site anywhere. I will keep the site down until I comply with that letter, as it threatens me with a lawsuit if I don’t, and sorry ED but I don’t take YOUR WORD that that isn’t what THAT GUY meant.
Now that said, I FINALLY got email back from the zzn people… please note the date of the mail they were responding to, as quoted in their letter:
-----Original Message-----
From: OpalCat [maimailto:Opalcat@fathom.org]
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 1999 12:55 PM
…which might I add was not the first letter I sent to them. This just happened to be the first time I told them that I was being threatened with a lawsuit. It still took them almost 2 months to bother to respond. What they said was this:
From: “Beti Loomis” <Bloomis@commtouch.com>
To: “OpalCat” <opalcat@fathom.org>
Subject: RE: Legal question
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:16:06 -0800
Message-ID: <NDBBKNJJBMOBGBKIDMEICEMOCAAA.Bloomis@commtouch.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=“windows-1255”
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991002155153.04bc7dc0@fathom.org>
Status:
Dear OpalCat-
Unfortunately, we are unable to provide you with the proper answer to your
question. This is a legal question that requires professional legal advice.
Due to obvious liability issues we cannot advice you on any legal matters.
We recommend that you retain the services of an attorney to assist you
further. To answer your question regarding, about your service and
“starting over” as you put it, I have been informed by one of our technical
persons that It is possible to change the service name without starting
over. When and if, the need arises, send a request to lisa@commtouch.com
and she and her group will assist you with the transition.
I regret that I will not be able to assist you further with your legal
matters, but hope that I maybe of assistance otherwise.
Beti E. Loomis
Paralegal
Commtouch Software Inc.
Tel: 408/xxx-xxxx
Fax: 408/xxx-xxxx
And so I have sent a note to “lisa” asking that the name be changed from “str8dope.zzn.com” to “teemingmillions.zzn.com”… I haven’t heard back yet.
Prior to this letter, the only information I had was from the support page (http://www.zzn.com/informail/support.asp) specifically http://www.zzn.com/informail/support_canI.asp#NAME2
I note that upon visiting the support page to find these urls, there is now a “Policy” support page that specifically deals with copyright/trademark issues… Upon viewing the page’s properties, I note that it was created on 11-17-1999 and that the page title still says “Document Title”–it’s that new. I can only assume that when they finally got around to dealing with my letter, they decided to make some policy about it as well.
–
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
Let me try to make this easy so that Ed’s tiny little pinhead brain can understand. What I wrote to you was SARCASM. I did that because you were/are an asshole. We had ALREADY discussed the situation and I was trying to cooperate with you, but you STILL HOUNDED ME and started making legal threats. You’ll note that I did not take the site down then, because I knew what YOU, ED “the big idiot” ZOTTI meant.
When I DID take the site down was when someone higher up who I have never spoken with before wrote me a letter with DIFFERENT TERMS in it. To me it read very clearly, and I took it to mean that someone HIGHER UP THE PISSING POLE THAN ED had made the decision to not allow me to reference the site anywhere. I will keep the site down until I comply with that letter, as it threatens me with a lawsuit if I don’t, and sorry ED but I don’t take YOUR WORD that that isn’t what THAT GUY meant.
Now that said, I FINALLY got email back from the zzn people… please note the date of the mail they were responding to, as quoted in their letter:
-----Original Message-----
From: OpalCat [maimailto:Opalcat@fathom.org]
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 1999 12:55 PM
…which might I add was not the first letter I sent to them. This just happened to be the first time I told them that I was being threatened with a lawsuit. It still took them almost 2 months to bother to respond. What they said was this:
From: “Beti Loomis” <Bloomis@commtouch.com>
To: “OpalCat” <opalcat@fathom.org>
Subject: RE: Legal question
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:16:06 -0800
Message-ID: <NDBBKNJJBMOBGBKIDMEICEMOCAAA.Bloomis@commtouch.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=“windows-1255”
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991002155153.04bc7dc0@fathom.org>
Status:
Dear OpalCat-
Unfortunately, we are unable to provide you with the proper answer to your
question. This is a legal question that requires professional legal advice.
Due to obvious liability issues we cannot advice you on any legal matters.
We recommend that you retain the services of an attorney to assist you
further. To answer your question regarding, about your service and
“starting over” as you put it, I have been informed by one of our technical
persons that It is possible to change the service name without starting
over. When and if, the need arises, send a request to lisa@commtouch.com
and she and her group will assist you with the transition.
I regret that I will not be able to assist you further with your legal
matters, but hope that I maybe of assistance otherwise.
Beti E. Loomis
Paralegal
Commtouch Software Inc.
Tel: 408/xxx-xxxx
Fax: 408/xxx-xxxx
And so I have sent a note to “lisa” asking that the name be changed from “str8dope.zzn.com” to “teemingmillions.zzn.com”… I haven’t heard back yet.
Prior to this letter, the only information I had was from the support page (http://www.zzn.com/informail/support.asp) specifically http://www.zzn.com/informail/support_canI.asp#NAME2
I note that upon visiting the support page to find these urls, there is now a “Policy” support page that specifically deals with copyright/trademark issues… Upon viewing the page’s properties, I note that it was created on 11-17-1999 and that the page title still says “Document Title”–it’s that new. I can only assume that when they finally got around to dealing with my letter, they decided to make some policy about it as well.
–
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
:::muttering::: stupid UBB software…duplicate posts…grumble
I meant to include the url of the new FAQ page: http://www.zzn.com/informail/support_policy.asp which addresses trademark issues.
–
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
Breaking news --about freakin time (again, look at the DATES here)–
*Return-Path: <lisaimap@commtouch.co.il>
Received: from mail.commtouch.co.il ([192.118.41.40])
by borg.fathom.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01742
for <opalcat@fathom.org>; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:59:06 -0500
Received: from lisa (192.118.41.101) by mail.commtouch.co.il (NPlex 2.0.108) for opalcat@fathom.org; 17 Nov 1999 05:04:41 -0000
From: “Lisa Kaplan” <lisaimap@commtouch.co.il>
To: “OpalCat” <opalcat@fathom.org>
Subject: RE: Legal question
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:55:21 +0200
Message-ID: <NDBBLCGOHKJFMHIBBIJFAEIGCBAA.lisaimap@commtouch.co.il> [some more header crap snipped]
str8dope.zzn.com was changed to teemingmillions.zzn.com
-----Original Message-----
From: OpalCat [maimailto:Opalcat@fathom.org]
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 12:51 AM
To: Beti Loomis; lisa@commtouch.com
Subject: RE: Legal question
Please, then, change str8dope.zzn.com to teemingmillions.zzn.com Thank
you. I really don’t wanna get sued.
At 11:16 AM 11/15/1999 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear OpalCat-
>
>Unfortunately, we are unable to provide you with the proper answer to your
>question. This is a legal question that requires professional legal
advice.
>Due to obvious liability issues we cannot advice you on any legal matters.
>We recommend that you retain the services of an attorney to assist you
>further. To answer your question regarding, about your service and
>“starting over” as you put it, I have been informed by one of our technical
>persons that It is possible to change the service name without starting
>over. When and if, the need arises, send a request to lisa@commtouch.com
>and she and her group will assist you with the transition.
>
>I regret that I will not be able to assist you further with your legal
>matters, but hope that I maybe of assistance otherwise.
>
>Beti E. Loomis
>Paralegal
>Commtouch Software Inc.
>Tel: 408/653-4352
>Fax: 408/653-4369
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: OpalCat [maimailto:Opalcat@fathom.org]
>Sent: Saturday, October 02, 1999 12:55 PM
>To: feedback@zzn.com
>Subject: Legal question *
–
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
The Ch Reader has three “Straight Dope” trademarks. They look exactly like this:
Word Mark
THE STRAIGHT DOPE
Owner Name
(REGISTRANT) CHICAGO READER, INCORPORATED
Owner Address
11 East Illinois Street Chicago ILLINOIS 60611 CORPORATION
ILLINOIS
Attorney of Record
Michelle C. Burke
Serial Number
75-976959
Registration Number
2151502
Filing Date
03/05/1996
Registration Date
04/14/1998
Section 1(B) indicator
SECTION 1 (B)
Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
Register
PRINCIPAL
Other Registration Info.
1152348
Published for Opposition
05/27/1997
Type of Mark
SERVICE MARK
International Class
038
Goods and Services
electronic mail services; DATE OF FIRST USE: 1996.05.00;
DATE OF FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 1996.05.00
International Class
042
Goods and Services
providing, by means of a global computer information network,
interactive and non-interactive computer databases containing
information in a wide variety of fields; retail store services,
available through a global computer information network, featuring a
wide variety of consumer goods; providing information in a wide
variety of fields by means of a global computer information network;
DATE OF FIRST USE: 1996.05.00; DATE OF FIRST USE IN
COMMERCE: 1996.05.00
Op, you can get get a CGI program to modify all your pages for you automatically. Might be one, they are free, usually, at
cgi-resources.com
Ed still hasn’t told us why those other web sites thestraightdope.com, net & org aren’t being questioned.
Ed, I think Opal still has that crush on you.
Rich
I never said you were the bad guys in this. Why does there have to be a bad guy at all? If your point is that OpalCat had formed an opinion of what you were asking her prior to receiving the letter, hey, I’ll buy that – I don’t know any differently. But you must admit that the letter mailed to her hardly clarified what you apparently really wanted her to do.
Like I said, do what you feel you need to to protect your trademark. I’ve enjoyed OpalCat’s site, but the only “opinion” I’ve formed is that a person who plays with someone else’s toys and refers to the owner as an “asshole” and a “pinhead” can’t be surprised when the owner takes back his toys and goes home.
And please don’t call me “babe.”
Veg writes:
No question in my mind. I gotta tell you, she’s so cute when she goes postal on ya. All the same, I ain’t asking her to be the co-pilot on MY jetliner.
jodih writes:
Now jodih. “Babe,” as used above, was not a term-of-affection-for-a-woman-I-am-romantically-involved-with babe. It was a non-gender-specific-all-purpose-what’s-happenin-babe kinda babe. Just so we’re clear on this.
Finally, regarding the TMHP, I have forwarded OpalCat’s post above to Mike Lenehan, executive editor of the Reader, so that he can provide Opal with detailed instructions regarding her site. Normally he would do this by E-mail, but since all his E-mails to Opal have wound up on the MB, I have suggested that he may as well post them to the MB to start with and eliminate the middleman.