Slight hijack—auslander names for Germans:
Didn’t Cecil do a column on this very subject? I can’t remember its title but I recall the dumb Slug Signorino illustration (that’s scary :)). I invoke the mighty name of Arnold to locate the reference!
Kimstu
2sense, did Thomas Paine, the Thomas Paine, really catch fugitive slaves?
Also, I stand corrected. I meant Algonquian speaking people.
mipsman:
Started a thread on this in MPSIMS.
2Sense:
You asked me:
If you act without considering other peoples feelings, how is that not insensitive?
I am sorry that I have not been able to make myself clear to you. Allow me to try again.
My answer is that the benefits of ‘sensitivity’ in this context is vastly overrated. If ones feel that the U of Illinois use of Chief Illiniwik is ‘insensitive’, that is the problem of the one who perceives it to be 'insensitive", not the U of Illinois. One so offended should get over it and proceed to other matters. The U of I’s use the Chief was not taken with the deliberate intent of offending oversenitive people. Contrast the schools’s use of the chief with John Rocker’s comments, who by his comments in Sports Illustrated appeared to be deliberately trying to offend. I do not believe that one can accidentally or unintentionally be rascist. Where there is no intent to be rascist through the use of the mascot, there is no reason to change the school mascot.
Sports ascots are choosen not to mock other groups, but because the team wants to pretend, and wants its fans to pretend, to have the mascot’s superior fighting qualities. To that end, those who compare naming a team after Indians with naming it after the N-word or Catholics or Jews miss the point of team mascots. No one choosing a team would select a name that would subject their own team to derision (with the exception of the U of Santa Cruz, which named its teams the Banana Slugs just because the students decided they wanted a silly, non-aggressive name). No one seeking an agressive sounding team name would name a team “The Fighting Muslims” than one would name them the “Fighting Sponges.”
Indian team names were selected because the Indians’ fighting skills were admired and feared. No one would name a team after the N-word or Catholics or Jews because the N-word nor the Catholics nor the Jews fighting ability was particularly admired or feared.
Further, I submit that there have already been a number of schools that have changed their mascots (ie Stanford, whose teams used to be called the Indians, Eastern Michigan, which used to be called the Hurons, St. John’s of NY, which used to be the Redmen, Miami of Ohio, which used to be the Redskins, and Marquette, which used to be the Warriors) in the face of complaints from a noisy but small minority whose sensitivities were offended by such schools prior mascots, and that the quality of life of Native Americans has not improved one whit as a result of the change. As I said before, many native peoples face very real problems, and the solutions to those problems do not lie with changing school mascots to more politically correct choices.
Marquette’s dropping of the name Warriors was particularly silly, since a Warrior is a soldier, not necessarily an Indian. Generals George Patton and Robert E. Lee were warriors.
PatrickM:
Before I try to answer your post, I should give you some information.
For reasons, which are embaressing to me personally, I was acting in an increasingly confrontational manner. This came to a head in 2 threads I started just after the posts just above your latest.
Reading my posts on this thread now makes me shake my head ruefully. I was being a jerk.
So, I am sorry if I annoyed you. I am resisting the urge to go around and apolegise(sick) to everyone. I have had people in situations similar to mine do this to me. So I know how this will only annoy everyone further.
I did not want to get into this argument for the reason that you stated. There are more important things to do. But I will try to explain my problems with racist mascots, briefly.
The Clown is a racist caraciture(sick). Portraying Natives only as warriors to be feared is a simplification. It demeans Natives because it portrays them as bloodthirsty savages. I assure you the opposite is true. European culture at the time of contact was much more savage than most American cultures.
The Clown adds to cultural missunderstanding(sick). Many people have the impression that White-Red clashes were the result of incompatable cultures. The agricultural lifestyle of the Europeans couldn’t share the same territories as the nomadic Americans. This is untrue for 2 reasons.
It was only then that these Native tribes became nomadic. To escape White depridations(sick).
Until new immigrants came along and took the Natives possesions. I am not talking about just land. But also houses(even mansions), barns, mills, and shops. The newcomers saw no need to build new homes or businesses, since there was nothing to stop them from simply claiming them from the Red Man.
U of I is an educational organization. They should not be in the business of furthering these steriotypes(sick). While having U of I get a new mascot will not end the problem of anti-native racism and misunderstanding, at least they will no longer be contributing to it.
I hope I have given you, if not an answer, at least something to think about. Yeah, I know I said briefly. But I got on a rant.
Sorry, I seem to have a case of the sick-ups today. 
Hey, maybe I should post that in the vomit synonyms thread. 
BTW- What did you think of my SUNY mascot joke? I am quite proud of that 1.
-curtis
2Sense:
I thank you for your apology particularly because it wasn’t necessary for you to do so.
And the New York Negroes take the field with their mascot, Aunt Jemima. She’s throwing fired chicken and watermelon to the crowd as she and her bastard children dance with natural rhythm. And their opponents, the New Jersey Jews charge out now, led by Chaim Goldfarb, in a really cheap suit. They’re eating Christian babies and planning the overthrow of the government. But wait, a third team enters. Yes, it’s the Fightin’ Catholics, led by their mascot, the Pope! He’s passing out communion wafers and sacred wine as he shoots Chaim with a squirtgun filled with Holy Water.
Now they’re all beating up the Washington Wiccan, roasting her at the stake as she wears a big pointy hat. And the Suburban Homeowners take the field, screaming about property taxes while they enjoy Miracle Whip on Wonder Bread sandwiches and have affairs in the back of their SUVs.
Let’s hear it for the mascots!!!
Bucky
[major thread hijack, over to English class]
2sense, when you see “[sic]” in text, it means that the editor or writer of the book or article is apologizing for the fact that the text he’s quoting from (it’s always within a quote, did you notice?) has a spelling error in it, but he can’t correct the mistake, because then it wouldn’t be a quote. It doesn’t mean, “I don’t know how to spell this word, so please overlook my spelling mistake.”
If you want to send THAT message, you go like this:
missunderstanding (?)
or
missunderstanding (sp.?)
Of course, the BEST thing to do if you aren’t sure how to spell a word is to LOOK IT UP!! (you knew I was gonna say that, didn’t you? 
)
Here’s a link to http://www.onelook.com/ if you need it. Hint: pick one of the dictionaries that you find the most simpatico and bookmark it. That way you don’t have to go through the whole Search thing for every word. You can even bookmark the Search page.
You know as well as I do how long the rest of the SDMB is going to let you get away with just putting “(sick)” after your spelling mistakes! Do you really want to provoke Coldfire or Wally into firing a well-aimed surface-to-air missile at you? Blammo, 2sense is rendered into his component molecules…
[end of English class–go outside and play, for heaven’s sake, it’s a beautiful day…]
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
Thanks a lot, Bucky, I just spilled my coffee all over my lap.
You should be locked up…Somebody get me a towel…
(ROFLMAO!)
(especially the part about the sandwiches…)
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
Here you go! Why are there so many names for Germany, AKA Deutschland, Allemagne, etc.? Sorry, but this one doesn’t have Slug’s illustration.
Notthemama:
Thanks for the heads up. I didn’t need it in this case. But I am sure to in the future.
My reading comprehension is quite good. It is only my spelling that is poor.
This is because I am a reader, not a writer.
I have written more in the last month than I have in the last 15 years.
I am sure I will improve.
I was doing the whole (sick) thing just for the sick-up joke.
::: dodging brick :::
You sure you’re not the mama.
You would make a fine one, I am sure.
PS- Thanks for the dictionary link. I went there and found the same problem I have with paper dictionaries. I have to know how to spell it, to look it up to find out how to spell it.
The perfect interactive dictionary for me would be one that instead of telling me it was misspelled, showed me the words closest to my misspelled 1.
You are my hero,
curtis.
Thank you for the vote of confidence Kimstu, but as you can see, Pixoid beat me to it!
As Cecil Adams said, the word “allemand” derives from the german words “alle Männer” meaning “all men.” (though I’m sure the German words were spelled differently back then.)
As far as the OP goes, here’s my opinion: why not ask the Native Americans in the region if the mascot is offensive to them. If it seems that a large majority find it offensive, get rid of it. Same thing with the poster that asked about the drunken leprechaun. If there is a sizable majority of irish or irish-american population that objects to it, and/or evidently if the majority of the general population think it’s in poor taste, get rid of it! There’s no reason to make a point of trying to offend people.
OK, I live in Illinois and hope to one day maybe actually go to the U of I. I’ve been to a couple of football games and I really don’t find the Chief offensive. I’m not Native American, but my opinion is that he is tradition, as many other people have stated. I also ask, why, if the Chief has been around so long, there has not been as much controversy about it before. It seems to me that if people genuinely feel insulted about it, then why didn’t they genuinely feel insulted since 1926 when the tradition started? OK, ok, fine then. Why didn’t they feel insulted since whenever the whole PC push started?
Well, either you’re closing your eyes to a situation you do not wish to acknowledge or you are not aware of the power of the presence of a pool table in your community. Ya’ got trouble my friends! -
Prof. Harold Hill
Gary Conservatory
Gold Medal Class
'05
While I agree that our civilization has become far too PC in recent years, I cannot side with the “he isn’t offensive” argument.
The reason people take offense to Native American mascots is that the majority of the time the mascot is depicted in a stereotypical way (i.e. feathered headress, warpaint, called “redskin”, etc.). It isn’t that most people don’t like the term warrior or indian or brave, it is that the depiction of such terms is done through stereotypes.
If the U of I were to depict the Chief (also a bit stereotypical, but we will let that slide) in a less offensive manner, I bet you would have a lot less objections to it.
And I must point out that if I tell a racist joke, whether it was meant to offend or not, it is still offensive and in bad taste. Don’t tell me that it is the responsibility of the offended to let it go. It is the responsibility of all of us to be understanding of those around us. I guarantee you that I would be fired if I told that joke at work and it was offensive to someone, whether I used the “I didn’t mean to offend” argument or not.
Rather, I was in the position of a spore which, having finally accepted its destiny as a fungus, still wonders if it might produce penicillin.
–Ayi Kwei Armah
Whoa, whoa, whoa,do you really want to say that if there are no people living in an area of a given ethnic background that a racist image or stereotype is ok. I guess that means since there aren’t a lot of blacks in Saskatchewan we could get away with changing the name of our football team to the Saskatchewan Pickininnies. I don’t think that is a proper way of doing things. How come every time someone disagrees with something they call it PC. What is wrong with trying not not to offend people.
Keith
Sorry to double post, but I have to add this.
If you were ever teased in school, you know that “It was all in good fun” doesn’t erase the pain of an insult. And if you don’t think that having your race stereotyped is an insult, I recommend you get a cranal-anal-ectomy.
Rather, I was in the position of a spore which, having finally accepted its destiny as a fungus, still wonders if it might produce penicillin.
–Ayi Kwei Armah
[minor hijack back to English class]
Do not despair, 2sense. The way you look up how to spell a word if you don’t know how to spell it is to use the THESAURUS, instead. People don’t tell you about those–they prefer to yammer on about dictionaries. It’s the English teacher’s best-kept secret.
The secret: Look up the plain vanilla word that means what you want to say, like “big”, in the thesaurus. That will give you a huge, enormous, vast, stupendous list of synonyms. Then you just pick the one you want. Hint: if you’re not sure exactly what it means (“grandiose”?) then look THAT up in the dictionary, and it will tell you, and it will also probably tell you how it is best used. We use the word “enormous” to apply to elephants, and the word “grandiose” to apply to ambition. You wouldn’t talk about a “grandiose” elephant.
[hijack within the hijack]
SINsapple, it took me a while, but you’ll be pleased to know that I finally figured out what a “cranal-anal-ectomy” is. But if I may, I would like to point out that it is probably spelled “cranial-anal-ectomy”. Needless to say, it wasn’t in either the dictionary OR the thesaurus.
LOL!
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
Personally, I think the “Moose Jaw Pickaninnies” has a better ring to it.
Sounds like a band.
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
I think that the fine people of Saskatchewan can name their sports teams whatever they’d like. And I don’t think that people from Illinois, or from anywhere else, would have a legitimate reason to complain about their choice.