I live in a marginally-South / borderlands area (historically and geographically Southern, but now mostly Northern in culture), and my parents were from a very Northern area (NYC metro). I’m on a first-name or familial term (e.g. uncle) basis with all children unless their parents object or the immediate, formal, social context clearly demands it (rare). Sometimes kids address me as Mr. _columbia, but I normally ask them not to. It’s very rare for a parent to object to this.
Thanks all for weighing in. Still undecided, but you’ve given me something to think about.
If I ran into a non-Southern kid who used Sir and Ma’am, I’d be surprised. And pretty creeped out, honestly. I hate the sir/ma’am thing, but realize it’s a cultural norm in the south. Luckily, I don’t live there. I grew up in NY and PA, and have lived in Chicago, Minneapolis, and Cleveland. So north/midwestern all the way. I also have family in Indianapolis, LA, and Denver, not used there either. I’m in my 30s, in case age is a factor. It was never anything I saw as a kid, nor do I see it now.
I want my kids to have manners - please, thank you, generally trying to think of others and not be selfish. Holding doors, letting people go ahead in line, being respectful. That kind of thing, not a focus on titles.
Teachers are called Mrs. Smith or Mrs. Sue, depending on the school (some prefer first names, some last names). Adults are Mr./Mrs. Smith unless told otherwise. Usually, the adult says “call me Jane” and we go with it, but if she doesn’t correct us, it’s Mrs. Smith. If we ran into an adult who insisted on sir/ma’am, I’d tell my kid to call them that…but I’d also try to avoid such a person because I think it speaks to a lack of respect for children and an inflated sense of self-importance when insisted upon in a culture where that is extremely abnormal. If we moved to the south, then things would be different.
Bur sir.ma’am are not my thing, and not one that is expected anywhere I’ve lived
I wasn’t raised in the South. I called my mother ma’am once and got yelled at and sent to my room because she thought I was smart mouthing her. So no, I wouldn’t teach my kids that practice.
I’m not southern, but grew up military. I say sir and ma’am. I will teach my child to say it as well. He will also say, Mr. Last name and Miss Last name. None of this Miss first name bull shit with adults.
This.
They’re to be used when you really want to show respect/servility - such as when working a service job or dealing with legal authorities. It’s also a substitute for “Hey you!” Kids who go around calling everyone sir or ma’am just creep me out.
(For geographic and time reference: Born in the 70’s. Raised in CA. Moved to WA as an adult.)
Oh, and as for Mr/Mrs - I would teach my kids to call people by the names they want us to call them by. But I would expect that using the first name would be the default except in school.
I’m a formal guy by nature, and I generally but not always use sir and ma’am, and nearly always last names at first. Northerner, military family, but we never used sir and ma’am within the home; my wife is southern and occasionally would use them to her parents, for emphasis. Children calling adults by their first names unbidden would have been alien to both of our upbringings.
We will presumably raise the little guy along similar lines, and let him know to follow what people say if they have a particular preference. There may be people who tease or even get offended no matter what one chooses, and I think the improtant thing is just to convey friendly respect.
I wasn’t taught to and I mostly grew up in the northern East and northern Midwest, but my father (raised by strict Texan Baptists) still uses both constantly (as well as “yall”), and I guess it rubbed off, because I do too (and “yall”). Not always, but often, especially since I work in customer service.
I wouldn’t teach my children to use them. Re: the OP, it seems over the top to require them to respond that way every time, and there are many ways to be polite and respectful as a child. These words aren’t essential and to much of the country, their frequent use is considered weird and outdated.
On the internet, I’ve read more than a few discussions on the matter and have found out that there are a lot of people who find the use of “sir” and “ma’am” strange, overly formal, etc, and also that there are a lot of women who get annoyed or offended if they are called “ma’am”. Which seems unbelievable to me…
The polite thing is to call people what they want to be called.
To the OP–Why don’t you teach them that the terms are sometimes considered appropriate but not always? Teach it as a social convention, not as an absolute. “Most adults in this area prefer that you call them sir/ma’am” rather than “You SHOULD call adults sir/ma’am.” “Many adults find it disrespectful if you don’t call them Sir/Ma’am” vs “It IS disrespectful not to call adults sir/ma’am.” If you teach them to err on the side of caution (to use them because you’re in the South) and support them in not using it with people that don’t like it, then I think you’ll accomplish both your goals.
I totally agree with the above. If I knew people that wanted my kid to call them Sir or Ma’am, that’s what my kid would call them. I don’t think he would ever feel particularly comfortable with that person, though. I know I wouldn’t. As noted above, in many parts of the country, we really only use those terms with strangers, police officers on duty, and the like. These are, by definition, not people you would feel comfortable around.
That is exactly exactly what I’d say, and exactly what I’d consider most polite. I assume that if you knew me IRL, it would never occur to you to introduce me as anything but Green. But erring on the side of caution and introducing me as Ms. Bean would be fine too.
The only thing that wouldn’t be fine is if you insisted your children call me Ms. Bean after I told you and them that I preferred to be called Green.
You’re planning to teach them to be impolite and disrespectful and you will be modeling impolite and disrespectful behavior.
I don’t like to be called Ms. Bean. It makes me feel very uncomfortable. Assuming that I regularly interact with your kids, and you insist on them calling me Ms. Bean, you are teaching them that it’s okay to disregard an adult’s wishes about what they want to be called and you, personally, are being disrespectful of me. You are calling my preferences “bullshit.” You are also calling the preferences of just about everybody I know “bullshit.” Calling adults Mr. or Mrs. is just about unheard of in my circles.
I guess it’s okay to be rude if you’re sitting on a high horse while you’re doing it?
If you really can’t deal with your kids calling me Green, have 'em call me Miss Green or something. My son will call you Mr. Bj77 or whatever you prefer.
I think it was either Donald Hamilton or Robert Heinlein who wrote:
The four most powerful phrases in the English language are “please”, “thank you”, “sir”, and “ma’am”. People who refuse to use them are depriving themselves of an extremely useful tool.
Someone once said that the three phrases that would get you through life are “cover for me”, “great idea, boss”, and “it was like that when I got here”.
Not Southern. When I was growing up (1970s), “Sir” and “Ma’am” were the names of adults you didn’t know. “Mr. X” and “Mrs. Y” were the names of adults you did know. Close friends of your parents were “Uncle X” and “Aunt Y”. I like this system, and would absolutely teach it to my children (but replace “Mrs.” with “Ms.”). I’m trying to teach it to my cats, so far without success. Children are not adults, and you can have a lot of mutual respect without false equivalence.
Being called Firstname by children, on the other hand, is common but appalling.
As with all tools it’s most effective when you use the right tool for the job.
My kids were not taught to say sir or ma’am. My ex does it because she was raised southern but it was not pushed on the kids. They are both extremely polite.
Not Southern, but I was taught to do this by my judo sensei. To him or anyone higher ranked than he, it was “Yes, sensei” or “No, sensei” for males or females, and “Yes, sir/ma’am” or “No, sir/ma’am” to anyone higher ranked than yourself.
I made a specific point of teaching my children to do “sir” or “ma’am”. Upon being introduced, they were trained to automatically look the adult in the eye and say “Pleased to meet you, Mr.(or Ms.) Lastname” and do a firm handshake if offered. And then “sir” or “ma’am” after that until the adult says otherwise.
It is always easier to go from more formal to less. And there are lots more people who are offended by being called by their first name by a child, than are offended by being called “ma’am” or “sir”.
My kids got a lot of that.
Regards,
Shodan
This is exactly what I taught my children.
Agreed.
(bolding mine)
Born and raised in the ‘South’. (Houston, Texas) I was taught that it’s proper and respectful to address everyone this way, (Sir, Ma’am/ Mr. X, Miss X) upon first meeting them, especially someone older than yourself. I was taught (and still think it’s appropriate) that when answering a question that requires a ‘yes or no’ answer, to say ‘yes (or no) sir/ma’am’, particularly in business dealings or when dealing with someone older or that is in some position of authority.
As for relatives and people that you interact with on a regular basis, it depends on how ‘familiar’ you are with that individual, and on that individuals personal preferences, IMHO.
As Shodan states, “It is always easier to go from more formal to less.” (I couldn’t have said it better.)
I gotta tell you, I’d just as soon avoid people who are offended by things like that. If I had kids, I would want them to avoid such people. Nothing good can come from associating with people who will get upset by something so trivially meaningless.
It’s like my freaking grandparents who had a fit because I called them to thank them for a present, but didn’t write a note. Heaven forbid! Who wants a conversation when you can get a piece of paper instead?