Then by all means, let’s decriminalize it. In fact, it would lead to better health.
(I’ll trust you on the same amount of health for 15-16 year olds, since that’s on the border. But I’d ask for a cite for 14 year olds.)
I still can’t believe people chose that bit of the story to get worked up over.
Sorry Astro,
Misread one of your links.
"In this particlar jurisdiction the age of consent is not 15, whether marriage is involve dor not. "
In California you can get married under the age of consent, which is 18, if you have permission from the folks, as my neice did, so I know this is true.
If the folks are given money in exchange for permission to marry their daughter to someone, isn’t that commonly known as a ‘dowry’?
No, what we’re talking about here is “bride price”.
Dowry is when the brides family supplies money along with the girl.
Umm, are you sure, look at Websters (dowry):
3 : a gift of money or property by a man to or for his bride
Hmm… Random House has it the other way around
For me, the issue is not about his rights, but about hers.
She’s aboriginal, but she’s also an Australian citizen, with full rights under Australian law. She didn’t want to stay - that overrides any traditional or cultural laws. As John Tippet says in the ABC article:
And as Hannah McGlade - an Aboriginal woman herself - says concerning tribal laws:
Seems to me the voice we’re not hearing here is that of the young woman. What does she want? Does she want to be married to this man? Does she want to have sex with him?
For all those defending the 50 year old man/teenage girl thing on grounds of culture - where in the world, in history - do you think there have ever been cultures where newly-post pubescent girls long to marry men old enough to be their grandfathers? Look at history, literature, culture today - generally, young girls like men/youths a couple of years older than them, but that’s all.
Saying it’s ok for a patriarchal society to allow ageing men to pick child brides is like trying to support the Taliban, or tribal Afghan society with girls and women routinely beaten. Fifty percent of those societies aren’t happy, or they’re brainwashed into thinking it’s ok. In fact, not just fifty percent. What about all the younger men ripped away from their sweethearts so the tribal elders can wed a young tight virgin?
I have huge respect for Aboriginal culture, having lived in Australia, but not this. This is a perversion in any culture, and something that needs to be ripped and rooted out.
None of us women (I hope and imagine) want to go back to the days of being forcibly wed to a stranger and forced to have sex and children at their whim and command, living under their control. So why do we assume “native” women should be preserved as bizarre fossils of patriarchal oppression?
Actually, I know a woman born and raised in the good ol’ USA who of her own free will, at the age of 27, married a man 50 years older than her - yes, old enough to be her grandfather. Apparently, they’re very happy together. Odd, but not unheard of or impossible.
Also, living in a city like Chicago for 15 years I met a lot of folks either born in the US or primarially raised in the US who nonetheless also came from cultures where arranged marriages were the norm. 18, 20, 25, 30 year old American citizens, both men and women, consenting to marriages with people they had never laid eyes on although they had all the freedom in the world to do otherwise. Nor are these people living uneducated in some ghetto - I’m talking about folks with MBAs from prestigious universities working as executives, doctors, lawyers, etc.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.
I DO know that history shows that when the Great White Benevolent People step in and start picking and choosing parts of a culture to keep or discard that, in general, things are only made worse. Indeed, they might even wind up reinforcing the very cultural practices they seek to discourage.
It’s western culture that dictates marriage is about romance and love - in many other times and places marriage was about producing babies without marrying too close a cousin, or political gain, or other things. Happiness was a bonus, not an expected thing or a right. Even the couple I mentioned in the first paragraph - yes, I suspect there were ulterior motives on the part of both parties beyond just romance. So what? If all parties are content with the situation and gain from it, it’s none of my business.
So… what it comes down to is, is the Aboriginal girl really being held against her will or not? Was her “I don’t want to stay” really I don’t want to stay here tonight or I don’t want to stay here at all? I’ve got a sister-in-law who married at 18 (not that much older than this girl) who frequently runs back to mama after a fight with her husband, but is still married to the jerk after a couple decades and two kids. There is nothing stopping her from terminating the relationship - but she doesn’t.
As I said before, I clearly don’t know the whole story. While it’s tempting, due to my background, to condemn this marriage I can also see that there are elements that make me suspicious this may be as much a conflict between the girls parents and her husband as between the girl and her husband. I just don’t know.
Actually, I know a woman born and raised in the good ol’ USA who of her own free will, at the age of 27, married a man 50 years older than her - yes, old enough to be her grandfather. Apparently, they’re very happy together. Odd, but not unheard of or impossible.
Also, living in a city like Chicago for 15 years I met a lot of folks either born in the US or primarially raised in the US who nonetheless also came from cultures where arranged marriages were the norm. 18, 20, 25, 30 year old American citizens, both men and women, consenting to marriages with people they had never laid eyes on although they had all the freedom in the world to do otherwise. Nor are these people living uneducated in some ghetto - I’m talking about folks with MBAs from prestigious universities working as executives, doctors, lawyers, etc.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.
I DO know that history shows that when the Great White Benevolent People step in and start picking and choosing parts of a culture to keep or discard that, in general, things are only made worse. Indeed, they might even wind up reinforcing the very cultural practices they seek to discourage.
It’s western culture that dictates marriage is about romance and love - in many other times and places marriage was about producing babies without marrying too close a cousin, or political gain, or other things. Happiness was a bonus, not an expected thing or a right. Even the couple I mentioned in the first paragraph - yes, I suspect there were ulterior motives on the part of both parties beyond just romance. So what? If all parties are content with the situation and gain from it, it’s none of my business.
So… what it comes down to is, is the Aboriginal girl really being held against her will or not? Was her “I don’t want to stay” really I don’t want to stay here tonight or I don’t want to stay here at all? I’ve got a sister-in-law who married at 18 (not that much older than this girl) who frequently runs back to mama after a fight with her husband, but is still married to the jerk after a couple decades and two kids. There is nothing stopping her from terminating the relationship - but she doesn’t.
As I said before, I clearly don’t know the whole story. While it’s tempting, due to my background, to condemn this marriage I can also see that there are elements that make me suspicious this may be as much a conflict between the girls parents and her husband as between the girl and her husband. I just don’t know.
Living here, I work and socialise with a lot of “westernised” Arabs/Pakistanis/Indians - people from cultures that still have a strong tradition of arranged marriage.
From my experience, the majority of young women really really hate it, and do cartwheels trying to get a love-marriage through on the sly (getting a mutual friend to introduce their already-boyfriend as a supposedly unknown eligible suitor). Some are more conservative/traditional, and happier for arranged marriage. The vast majority do it through huge family and social pressure - because they know of the shame it would bring if they don’t. For slightly older couples - eg 30 plus - it may be a little more popular because then they want to start families sooner, which compares to westerners using a marriage bureau. But 18 year old girls that have been educated and exposed to the world - you think they really want to marry 40 year old men they have never met? Dream on!
Generally, the more freedom, world exposure, and education they have, the more they want to pick their own mate. So I have come to believe that arranged marriages - particularly inter-generational marriages - are not something to celebrate and try and preserve in native cultures.
I think they are a remnant of a very patriarchal past, and most of them are about snobbery, greed and control. I used to think the aim was to choose the nicest, most reliable/supportive, best partner for the son/daughter. But no. Marriages are arranged to keep wealth within families, to better a family’s reputation - many, many reasons but the majority are not pleasant, altruistic, or particularly moral.
I have no problem per se with a big age gap (from experience, it can work very well). But a 35 year age gap when the younger partner is 15 is disturbing. It means she’ll have a much longer widowhood. More years bringing up the kids alone. It isn’t desirable.
Arbitrary (arbitrary because there are numerous jurisdictions where 15 is quite legal, including many idustrialized, western nations) questions as to whether or not a statutory rape was commited or not aside, I find the usage of the term “black” to describe the defendant less arbitrarily questionable. I haven’t seen a picture of the individual in question, but most Australian Aborigenes I’ve seen looked more of a hickory bronze to me. If black was meant as a racial classification, it seems even odder. Weren’t aborigenes considered members of the caucasian race (up to the point that races were believed to exist)?
Well, not always. It is illegal in the US to cross state lines with anyone under the age of 16 with the intent of having sex. Something for Iowans to keep in mind when making honeymoon plans, perhaps. 