No I don’t think it was a legal document. It was something Susan created to make life difficult for Greg. In this instance, Greg was wary of signing anything so therefore he didn’t see his kids that day. IIRC, he did sign it the next day and got to see them.
Just to expand… Greg had flown out to CA and was only in town for 2 days. He missed out on one day of visitation because they refused to give him the boys if he didn’t sign the document. If he wanted to see them during this visit, he really had no choice but to do what Susan asked.
If he had taken it to court, it usually takes a month or more to be heard by a judge. And you pretty much have to hire an attorney. He had just gotten done with paying an attorney $5,000 a few months prior to update the custody arrangement. The fact is, as a father, unless you have endless money to pay lawyers, you don’t have much power over circumstances like this.
With someone like her, I don’t think I’d go there unless the court required it. Once the court says “You have these rights and you have to jump through these hoops,” it isn’t for the parties to add on what their demands are. I’d get a lawyer commentary on that but it seems to me she violated the agreement.
IANAL, but actually doing anything about that sort of shenanegins would take Greg filing a motion in Family Court, out there, to register that Susan is not living up to the current agreement. Because he’s across the country, that’s expensive. And time consuming.
Whatever the justice of the matter may be, in reality, Susan has Greg in a very vulnerable position, and knows it.
Then, too, I’ve seen Family Courts act in a manner that seemed prejudicial against the person who keeps bringing the matter back into court, after the judge thinks everything has been worked out. So, if Greg keeps bringing things back to court, no matter where the justice of the complaint may be, the court may still punish him for making more work for them.
Very good advice, thank you Zoe.
Regarding her paying her half of travel expenses for visitation… yes she should be paying her share of the travel expenses, but she won’t. She just doesn’t have the money. She has no job. The only money she gets is Greg’s child support. So if Greg wants to see them, he pretty much had no choice but to pay the whole cost.
By the way, Greg tried to nail down visitation dates back in February and March so he could get cheap air fares. But Susan would not commit to any dates and would not contribute any money. Greg told her the longer they waited, the more expensive the flight would be. But Susan still would not commit. It is only now - about a month before the intended visit - that dates are getting nailed down. And only now is Greg being told the boys don’t want to come 
Ah, no. I don’t think ANYONE is allowed to withhold the kids by putting someone else over a barrel that SHE creates based on HER demands. You don’t play that game because the courts have already decided it, not HER.
As for the cost of hiring a lawyer, I wonder if she’d have to pay it, since she screwed up. Essentially you’d sue for lawyer fees and court costs as well.
IANAL but I wish one would come along right about now…
Interesting – in this case it’s definitely Susan…
They utilized the original custody agreement from the divorce for years up until last fall, when Greg hired a lawyer to update the agreement based on his move to Virginia. Everything was pretty cordial and most of the updates were just routine.
It was just about 5 months later that Susan takes this back to court – after the Thanksgiving visit – thereby trashing the entire new agreement that she signed off on in Fall 2007 (and let me add again, that Greg paid a lawyer $5,000 to work on). So Greg has to shell out more money now just to keep things the way they were.
I honestly think Susan will keep doing this just to aggravate Greg, perhaps getting him so frustrated that he will just give up on the kids, so she can act like her new husband is the boys’ “dad” and forget Greg ever existed (well except for that monthly child support check).
I agree in theory, but in reality but he had only 2 choices: (1) sign it and see his kids or (2) not see his kids, fly back home, hire a lawyer, wait at least a month to get a hearing, have the judge order it to mediation (which is what they always do), wait another month for mediation, wait again for the next hearing… Then if the judge rules in his favor, he has to take more time off work, save up for a plane ticket, then go back out to CA. In the meantime, 3-4 more months have passed since he has seen his kids.
That would be nice but remember, she has no money. She does not work and has no income. The only income she has is the child support Greg sends her.
It’s so sad, and I feel so helpless for Greg. Everything is stacked against him since he is the father and noncustodial parent. It is very easy for Susan to use the system to get vengeance on him.
What people are supposed to do and what the courts will allow and enforce are often very different beasts.
The Monster’s parents custody agreement had a travel clause: Any out of state travel had to include notification of intended return trip plans. Including flight numbers and tickets for return air fare already purchased.
So, one Christmas when The Monster’s father was scheduled for visitation he said he was going to take The Monster down to Florida. But he had no firm plans for how he was going to get back. He refused to even commit to a return date. Around this time, he was unemployed, his house had just been foreclosed upon, and he had family in Florida.
For some reason, The Monster’s mother felt that this stank to high heaven. She took the custody agreement with her to the Family Court clerks, and got an emergency injunction against The Monster’s father’s visitation, and served him with a court date.
And when the judge heard the arguments from the father’s lawyer, he reprimanded the mother for actually insisting that the bloody damned custody agreement be followed! (Mind you, part of the problem was that the PD was totally uninformed and uninvolved.) I have no faith in the Family Court system, between seeing how things worked out with The Monster, and how mothers could screw over service men fathers while I was in the Navy.
The theory is all very nice. But the reality is often very different.
Reading all this, I’d say it’s time for a lawyer. It sounds like you’re probably going to fight this for a few years at least.
Interesting you should mention servicemen – Greg was in the military until fairly recently. In fact, the military was the only reason he was in California. Once he got out, he was able to move to Virginia, to an area where there were lots of jobs in his field.
Seeing what he has gone through, I also have no faith whatsoever in the family court system.
A lot of times he just sighs and seems resigned to having to go through this bullshit for the next 10 years until the youngest one is 18. He is also sadly resigned to the fact that Susan may well succeed in brainwashing them against him. He just does the best he can.
I think the kids should see their father. I agree with others that they may sulk the first day but after that I think things will turn out okay.
I have no other advice but I want to say that it really sucks that their mother is being such a paranoid bitch.
There are so many dead beat parents that don’t pay support and won’t even attempt to see their children that it really breaks my heart when I hear of situations like these. And forcing them to call him Greg rather than Dad really sets me over the edge.
I wish you all the luck on getting through this and I hope the best for both of you and the children.
There’s a part of me that thinks that Greg should just sue for full or even joint custody. Forget “visitation”. If Susan wants to play nit-picky BS games, then I’d go for it full force. Otherwise, she’ll drag this out for the next ten years.
Susan is a crazy shrew, I’m sorry that you and your BF have to deal with her.
Speaking as someone who grew up visiting her father, my advice is for Greg to talk to the kids about it. As kids get older, it can be frustrating to have this huge obligation that isn’t of your own making thrust upon you. From a 12 year old point of view, it’s disruptive. Adults are always telling you that you need to be more responsible, but no one gives you any actual responsibility.
Kids are kids and they have to see their dad, I’m not saying it should be up to the kids whether to come or not. However, I think it’s reasonable to talk TO THE KIDS and give them some input. It could be as simple as they are annoyed that the selected week is making them miss the Little League tournament or something like that. It’s not always possible to schedule around the kids, but at least recognizing their disappointment can go a long way. Even if there isn’t a specific thing, it could be the idea that no one consulted them. Letting them help plan, even in small ways, could be good. Would they like to come right after school lets out, or at the end of the summer? Would they like to visit Dad at home, or would they like a camping trip with Dad? As they get older and have different interests, maybe some one-on-one time with Dad would be good, not necessarily all three at once.
Of course, all of this needs to be realistic for Dad financially and in terms of taking time off work. But even within that, there should be some flexibility for the boys to give their input.
And, for all my talk of giving them more options, one thing that is not an option is what to call him – they should be calling him Dad if that’s what he prefers.
The kids don’t get a vote. They’re kids. The ordered visitation is just that - an order of the Court - and should not be disregarded by either party.
This is a really hard thing to deal with because nobody really knows for sure how much is parental ego and how much is what the child really wants. And even if it’s all the child, sometimes kids have to do things they don’t want to because it makes them better people; other times, forcing them to do things that really traumatize them can wreck them.
I guess if someone can answer those questions, then what’s best for the child must trump all else.
Edit: Having said all of that, naturally, **legalsnugs ** is right about the court order. One cannot simply ignore it, but one can take steps to get it changed if it turns out to be not best for the child.
My family is sort of the other side of this situation. My wife had custody, her ex moved across the county. Deadbeat dad though and my wife never “brainwashed” the boy, so that’s different.
The kids should visit their father, for so many reasons. The court says so and Dad says so should be enough. As someone else pointed out, kids are terrible judges of what would be a good way to spend their time. They need to be shown what is fun and interesting and, sometimes, they need to be shown their obligations. What do they know about summer in Virginia? There’s the lovely weather here (oh wait, who would want to visit Virginia in the summer?) Given the choice, my kids (as teens) would have hung about the house and done nothing all day.
I have to comment on the “brainwashing” statement; we used to get this all the time from my step-son’s dad. If you know of some way to brainwash a teenager so that they will believe what I tell them, please, please send it too me. Normal teen aged behavior is to distance themselves from their parents and to find any activity with those parents to be boring. The ex-wife in this case may well be bad-mouthing the dad but that, more often than not, backfires and it’s not “brainwashing”.
As these kids get older they may well begin to resist traveling to see their dad even more. This is because what they want is more important to them than what their parents want, not because they don’t like their dad. They are turning into adults and have lives. And I also have to say, as a non-parent in this case, I hope you are staying well clear other than discussions with you BF. This is for him and his family to work out.
I wonder what groups might exist that promote the rights of the father. A quick search brought up this:
http://www.fathers-rights.com/
http://www.themenscenter.com/National/national06.htm
Maybe you can find a not-for-profit organization to help out. I didn’t go deeply into these, don’t have any experience with them, but there must be groups out there that aren’t just a storefront for lawyers.
Actively or passively, visitations are being blocked. You indicated that He was not allowed to see them unless he signed an agreement each time? WTF?!
And I could very well be wrong here, but, if the dad is there on a scheduled visit (is it part of the visitation agreement?) and he is being denied visitation unless an unauthorized form is signed I’m thinking the police could be called in on this and a complaint made. If I were him, I’d take the copy of the paper directly to the police station and explain to them that the ex is altering the legal agreement the courts had already set (and have a copy of the court document). However, I am not a lawyer but a mediator(?) may be able to assist him.
If she is not paying her portion of the travel expenses although it had been agreed upon, I would simply ask the court if you can deduct it from that month’s (or the next) child support and send a copy of the receipt for expenses. I had this agreement with my ex, but in more detail. He could deduct half the cost of airfare from his child support. He would have to send them a copy of the plane receipts with all the details.
If you’re going to go back to court though, I would seriously sit my hubby down and talk it over. If you are in a position to file for joint custody - DO IT! This does not necessarily mean that you have to have them for 6 months out of the year… you can arrange it where the Mom still has them most of the time but there is no more child support. You can, however, agree to give the kids allowance sent to their mom on their behalf to help with the cost of upkeep. My ex sister-in-law did this with her ex hubby for their son… however, they were on friendly terms. The point is - go for the gusto and ask for more than you want and work your way down if you have to. This will get her attention - especially if she is being difficult and the threat of losing child support may be enough to get her to stop pulling bs tactics.
DOCUMENT EVERYTHING.
The courts arent always against the dads - but they arent too happy to hear about moms who collect the “paycheck” and keep the kids away from their dads when their is no valid reason.
The problem with this is that you can inadvertantly hurt the kids. I mean, if it takes X dollars to keep them fed, sheltered, clothed, etc. then deducting the airfare means they end up with something less than the X dollars they required in the first place.
IME the best custody arrangements I’ve seen were where both of the ex’s essentially decided, “Whatever differences we had in the marriage, let’s not take them out on the kid(s).” They didn’t bad-mouth each other or withhold visitation, etc. “The second week in July is better than the first? No problem.” Not “Aha you bastard, well, this says I only have to give them to you the first week, so deal!” And the guy I mentioned…when it turned out that one of the kids needed braces, he didn’t force it back to court etc.; he just paid up.
But I’m supposing this “kids first” thing is out of the question here. There’s a temptation to say, “Then it’s all-out war.” Well, the kids are forever. They’re going to remember how the parents treated each other post-divorce. Whether it turns into an all-out or whether it’s skirmishes here and there, I’d never forget that the kids are taking it all in.