I didn’t want to hijack this thread, describing apparent communication between children and dead people. I thought about posting in GQ, but I think the answers will mostly be opinions. I thought about posting it in IMHO, but it seems that threads I start there often wind up here. So here it is.
I don’t believe in ghosts. (Nor space aliens visiting Earth, for that matter.) In the linked thread there is a story about the poster’s child, who had no way of knowing his grandfather was ‘gone’ but stated the fact and also described what the man was wearing. Other stories describes a children explaining they had lived before. (One described having lived in a neighbourhood ‘when he was old’; another claims to have been shot down in WWII.)
So what’s going on? Some stories can be explained away because children often have vivid imaginations. But what about the specific details that are true? As I said, I don’t believe in ghosts. I also don’t believe in ESP. What is the rational explanation?
They can learn a language, decoding whatever is around them. If they’re brought up in a multilingual home, they’ll learn whatever’s being spoken and never mix them up. They can make sense of a huge stream, quite a testament to the brain’s ability.
They’re like animals. Just as dogs can sense another dog is ready to fight, they’re keen interpreters of everything around them without relying on words. Facial expressions, body language, all that. They’re starting from a more basic, survivalistic sort of brain that depends on it.
I’d suspect the data is “magnified” because the experiences are novel to them. A small child isn’t content to look at your car keys—they have to be touched, smelled, tasted as well.
They haven’t got as much on the hard drive or had as long to forget it or distort their memories. A friend of mine said his daughter told him that she remembered a night when she was sooo dry and her shoulders hurt etc. After hearing her whole story, he said to me, “That was the night she was born.” Was I whooshed? I don’t think so but then, I seem to recall seeing the JFK assassination through the slats of my crib.
So all this data comes in and they somehow make sense of it. They saw a picture of grandpa, they overheard a conversation when you thought they were asleep (and maybe they were—I think the brain records 24/7). They haven’t learned to be embarrassed or ashamed or censor themselves. They connect the dots in ways we’ve forgotten.
I.e. “What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult. ”- Sigmund Freud
These don’t explain everything of course but it’s a start.
Parts of the story were filled in after the fact, because that is how our memory is wired, like it or not.
Part of the story, where someone told the child what Gramps was wearing, was left out because either nobody bothered to ask the child if it happened, or the child was confused.
Casper the ghost told him.
Look, if we had something substantial to investigate we might be able to come up with answers, but you simply can’t investigate an anonymous story.
To recap the first few posts, minus Czarcasm’s two:
“I’ve heard some unsubstantiated, unlikely rumors. Why are they true?”
“My theory is that they are true because of some vaguely-put principles I believe in based on a few extremely dubious anecdotes.”
I do not believe in ghosts. My child creeped me out because he had somehow accessed information I did not know. He claimed, at three, that he had talked to a “see through person”, and described that person and how he was buried. I honestly don’t know where he got the information he got, but I don’t think it was a ghost. He may have heard a documentary, overheard something at daycare, anything, but I really don’t think he talked with dead people. However, it was creepy. I think lobotomyboy63 and Czarcasm are correct. If people could come back as themselves in some form after death, I think it would be likely that a significant number would return to reassure their loved ones, or say goodbye. Enough that it would be a documented phenomenon, at least.
By seeming to ask if there is something that lies outside the scope of [thomas dolby] SCIENCE! [/tb] you imply that there might be such a thing. Anyone guilty of such an insiinuation is obviously:
Johnny seems to be asking us to accept the accuracy of the anecdotes as a proposition; I do not. Lobotomy replies with more propositions I find dubious and/or too vague to be useful. For example, I am sure children are far less attentive to others’ moods, less likely to notice, interpret, or care about subtle cues. I also think they’d also be far less able to report or remember data than adults. That’s why we drive and pay the bills and they don’t.
Children do grasp languages quickly, and a bunch of other things, but that doesn’t mean they can talk to ghosts. And I dare to differ – it’s not a start.
If the kid got Grandpa the Garfield shirt himself, then of course when he pictures Grandpa, he’s going to picture him wearing that shirt. Why would that be surprising?
I am not implying anything of the sort. I’ve said twice that ghosts don’t exist. If they do not exist, then it is impossible for there to ‘might be’ such a thing.
As for the rest of your post, name-calling is not allowed in this forum.
You definitely left open the possibility (even the necessity) of “something outside of science”, which is all that K. suggested you did.
I’m not sure where you expected this thread to go, but it’s hard to imagine many paths that are not pseudoscientific.
If I HAD to come up with something, it would just be statistical. A billion kids on earth talking about a bazillion different things, most of which we ignore, but when they strike upon something true, we remember it. People throw away the losing lottery tickets and keep the winners.
Even then, I think there’s interpretation and selective memory and embellishment so we are back on K’s list of misleading and lying (though it may be unintentional – there’s a lot that go on mentally when there’s the grief over a dead parent, sentimentality about your children, and the poignance of something special happening between grandparent and child), but you could say there’s an element of probability involved.
I don’t see where you get that. I specifically said that ‘something outside of science’ can’t be the answer. Therefore, assuming the posters accurately related what happened, the answer must lie within the realm of reality.
Well I didn’t expect to be called a liar.
I expected people to come up with rational explanations. For example, Guy comes home and he’s upset. Kid notices. Kid was close to grandpa and fears the worst. He remembers the gifted shirt, and perhaps that grandpa liked to wear huaraches. He makes a lucky guess and embellishes it with his imagination.
Or the kid who said he was shot down in WWII. Maybe he’d recently seen a WWII movie.
I emphatically do not imply the existence of the paranormal. I don’t know how much clearer I can make it.
Suppose I was in a society that had never seen an airplane. I see one and tell people about it. Is the airplane a god? Or is there a rational explanation to what I saw?
You are assuming that since I asked a question, then I must therefore believe that ghosts exists. Your assumption is incorrect. Upon that incorrect assumption you accuse me of lying. This is also not correct. Perhaps you are fishing for a reaction? :dubious:
