Children speaking with the dead (ed. title per OP req.)

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Koxinga

OK, I’m going to be sincere now, since this is a perfect example of what I was hoping to imply. The skeptical mindset or whatever you want to call it is so firmly ingrained in some quarters that it dismisses out of hand “space aliens” as a fairy tale even though there’s nothing in science per se that precludes such an explanation. And I notice that your haste to dismiss the possibility of space aliens as a way to establish your skeptical credentials and show you’re not one of those people who believe in such things.

That’s it, and sorry for yankin your chain.

This is all completely false, as is every other part of your strawman satirization of what you call “skeptics.”

The scientific mindset quite readily accepts the possibility of extraterrestrial life as not only plausible, but as a virtual certainty. The probelm with hypothesizing UFOs as “alien spaceships” is not predicated on an assumption that aliens can’t exist, but upon the extreme distances between stars, and the enormous amount of time (on the order of centuries or millennia) and resources it would take to travel between them. It’s VERY likely that life has arisen and evolved elsewhere in the universe. It’s extremely UNLIKELY that any of those other lifeforms would be able to even LOCATE other life, and astronomically unlikely that they would expend hundreds or thousands of years (as well as the amount of resources it would take to stay alive and get here).

That means that alien spaceships, while not absolutely impossible, are by far, the LEAST likely explanation possible for seeing an object in the sky.

Your notion that anyone is “offended” by supernatural propositions is also completely off base. Not taking a hypothesis seriously is not the same thing as being offended by it. You actually sound like you’re the one who’s offended.

[tnetennba]

@lobotomyboy63

As the OP stated in his 2nd sentence,

I thought about posting in GQ, but I think the answers will mostly be opinions.

As such, I didn’t expect to cite things. But OK. Mind you, I’m not a clinical psychologist so I just did a quick google.

1. You seem to accept my premise that children are language learners.

2. Body language:

*Children read body language and tone of voice very clearly. *
http://www.cleverparents.com/2008/05/29/the-connected-parent-helping-children-with-separation-and-divorce/

Children read body language: closed,aggressive, or “mean” body language
indicates to the child that he/she should be guarded.
http://www.msbar.org/admin/spotimages/1927.pdf

Children can read body language… they hear more than your words.
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:hXzzHebHMO8J:www.nps.k12.nj.us/Presentations%2520and%2520Resources/NewarkWelcoming%2520All!%2520%2520The%2520Vision%2520of%2520Inclusive%2520Education.ppt+"children+can+read+body+language"&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

3. Sensory world:

Basic research has revealed that the chemical sensory world of children is different from that of adults, as evidenced by their heightened preferences for sweet and salty tastes.
Heightened Sour Preferences During Childhood | Chemical Senses | Oxford Academic

Touch—Kids depend on a sense of touch more than other senses, in part
because the touch receptors are more developed.

Smell—The roof of the mouth has 10 million special receptors called
olfactory epithelium that are stimulated by odors and send information to
the brain. Smell tends to peak at about age 10.

Taste—The olfactory cells in the nose work with the taste buds to help
the brain figure out what it’s tasting. Teenagers have an especially good
sense of taste, but the brain continues to register information that
reminds us that when something smells rotten, we shouldn’t eat it.
http://www.dmns.org/NR/rdonlyres/76099273-EE79-4682-90AC-AD35A6CF5C25/2785/FebMarchMM.pdf

4. I’m not sure know how to defend the idea that if someone is younger, they haven’t had as many experiences.

What do you consider vague and what do you consider to be wildly inconsistent with what you know about cognitive development?

@Der Trihs: Thanks for the posts. I didn’t read every post but I recalled the example.

You claimed in 4 that they have excellent memories, which is not true. You even claimed that they might have natal memories. For 2 you said they were “keen interpreters,” of facial expressions which is traded for a much blander fact in the cites that recognize basic moods; but that’s a matter of spin and isn’t worth arguing about. Overall your first post just had a breathless wonderment, a “who knows what they can do!” position that reminded me of the parents of “indigo children” and other Jungian types who have a fervent belief in the natural grace of children. You seem to have backed off all of that, but it illustrates how little a start it really was to answering the question in the OP. “Can baby Johnny talk to dead relatives?” “Well, he puts keys in his mouth and knows that scowls are bad.” I’m sorry, I don’t follow.

[tomndebb]

@Koxinga

Well, I was trying to satirize Czarcasm’s list to some extent, but I guess it wasn’t taken as such.

You might want to be sure that satire, sarcasm, or other forms of irony get some sort of flag so that grumpy moderators dealing with stuff in the early mori
ing as they head to work can recognize your efforts.

Warning rescinded.

[ /Modding ]

[lobotomyboy63]

@lobotomyboy63

4. They haven’t got as much on the hard drive or had as long to forget it or distort their memories. A friend of mine said his daughter told him that she remembered a night when she was sooo dry and her shoulders hurt etc. After hearing her whole story, he said to me, “That was the night she was born.” Was I whooshed? I don’t think so but then, I seem to recall seeing the JFK assassination through the slats of my crib.

@cricetus

You claimed in 4 that they have excellent memories, which is not true. You even claimed that they might have natal memories.

Where did I claim that they have excellent memories? I said they haven’t had as much time to forget or as many memories in their brains as they will have accumulated by the time their adults. “Natal memories” was one anecdote, for what it’s worth or isn’t.

@cricetus

For 2 you said they were “keen interpreters,” of facial expressions which is traded for a much blander fact in the cites that recognize basic moods; but that’s a matter of spin and isn’t worth arguing about.

I googled “Children read body language” and “Children can read body language” with the quotes. There may or may not be better sources out there but I thought you weren’t convinced, so I gave you something with the exact wording.

@cricetus

Overall your first post just had a breathless wonderment, a “who knows what they can do!” position that reminded me of the parents of “indigo children” and other Jungian types who have a fervent belief in the natural grace of children.

Breathless wonderment? It may have come across that way; mind you, I have no children myself, so I’m definitely not a doting parent (or uncle or anything else, for that matter). I am interested in ethology, sociobiology, and that sort of thing however, and it’s fascinating to read about some of the hardwiring that various animals (humans included) have from birth. E.g. smiling in infants arises from “nature,” not “nurture.”

@cricetus

You seem to have backed off all of that, but it illustrates how little a start it really was to answering the question in the OP. “Can baby Johnny talk to dead relatives?” “Well, he puts keys in his mouth and knows that scowls are bad.” I’m sorry, I don’t follow.

Backed off? Not a bit.

And again, you seem to think I’m trying to prove Johnny can talk to dead relatives when I’m arguing that he can’t. Example: as Der Trihs was kind enough to point out, it seems that children can hear pitches that we can’t, including some sort of “pre-ring” on the phone. A parent may conclude Johnny is psychic, but it’s explainable by them having a different sensitivity of hearing that we do.

I’m not saying that with breathless wonderment—I’m sure there are peaks for different abilities throughout our lifetime. It wouldn’t surprise me if as teenagers, we trash our hearing by cranking our stereos, or if it just deteriorates the longer we live in a noisy world, either.

[lekatt]

@StaudtCJ

I do not believe in ghosts. My child creeped me out because he had somehow accessed information I did not know. He claimed, at three, that he had talked to a “see through person”, and described that person and how he was buried. I honestly don’t know where he got the information he got, but I don’t think it was a ghost. He may have heard a documentary, overheard something at daycare, anything, but I really don’t think he talked with dead people. However, it was creepy. I think lobotomyboy63 and Czarcasm are correct. If people could come back as themselves in some form after death, I think it would be likely that a significant number would return to reassure their loved ones, or say goodbye. Enough that it would be a documented phenomenon, at least.

Children are great psychics since they haven’t been taught that such a thing is impossible. They have imaginery friends that are not imaginery. They have near death experiences, the whole nine yards. They also are not prone to telling false events. Dr. Melvin Morse is a children’s doctor and has been keeping a list of what the kids tell him that come true or are true. His site:

http://www.melvinmorse.com/light.htm

[tnetennba]

Here we go again.

[overlyverbose]

I think Lobotomyboy and Jragon’s explanations combined are good theory. As one of those kids who had similar experiences, it makes sense to me as an adult that,

a) I knew my grandfather was very sick. He’d been sick since my earliest memories of him.

b) We were very close and I spent a LOT of time with the guy taking care of him (I was 9 and had nothing else to do at my grandmother’s house), so I probably picked up on some cues from him and may have been able to tell better than some of the adults in the house when things changed - my grandmother was always preoccupied with household management and my mom had our house to manage and the family’s company books to maintain.

c) Grandfather went into the hospital and everyone was very scared.

So, one night I dreamed he’d died. I woke up, everyone was crying and I found out that he was, indeed, dead. At the time, it scared the hell out of my mom that I knew what was going on. But, thinking about it now and thinking about some of the things my son has said that have surprised me, it’s not such a stretch. There wasn’t anything supernatural about it - I was just paying attention and the next logical thing happened.

I can’t do anything to dissuade my mom from thinking this was a supernatural episode of some sort, though. I was close to all of my grandparents and, to some extent, had similar experiences with each. But they were people I spent a lot of time with (as the youngest, my responsibility at my grandparents’ houses was to take care of whoever was bedridden or sickest by getting them what they wanted, reading to them, fluffing pillows, changing channels, etc. - which, now that I think about it, was a very clever way to keep me out of trouble), I knew how they acted when they were moderately healthy (read: didn’t need to be in the hospital) and could tell when things weren’t “right” and picked up a lot from the adults around me reacting to their situations.

And I’m sure that memory (and my mom’s telling of the stories, which is irritating) filled in a lot of what wasn’t previously there. For example, she tells people that I described what my grandfather was wearing when he died. For her, this is proof that I had some sort of connection to his spirit as he was passing. It’s never occurred to her that he was in a hospital - what else would he be wearing but a hospital gown? So the “supernatural” aspects of the story are often just as much in eye of the beholder as they are in the eye of the one having the experience.

[lekatt]

@overlyverbose

I think Lobotomyboy and Jragon’s explanations combined are good theory. As one of those kids who had similar experiences, it makes sense to me as an adult that,

a) I knew my grandfather was very sick. He’d been sick since my earliest memories of him.

b) We were very close and I spent a LOT of time with the guy taking care of him (I was 9 and had nothing else to do at my grandmother’s house), so I probably picked up on some cues from him and may have been able to tell better than some of the adults in the house when things changed - my grandmother was always preoccupied with household management and my mom had our house to manage and the family’s company books to maintain.

c) Grandfather went into the hospital and everyone was very scared.

So, one night I dreamed he’d died. I woke up, everyone was crying and I found out that he was, indeed, dead. At the time, it scared the hell out of my mom that I knew what was going on. But, thinking about it now and thinking about some of the things my son has said that have surprised me, it’s not such a stretch. There wasn’t anything supernatural about it - I was just paying attention and the next logical thing happened.

I can’t do anything to dissuade my mom from thinking this was a supernatural episode of some sort, though. I was close to all of my grandparents and, to some extent, had similar experiences with each. But they were people I spent a lot of time with (as the youngest, my responsibility at my grandparents’ houses was to take care of whoever was bedridden or sickest by getting them what they wanted, reading to them, fluffing pillows, changing channels, etc. - which, now that I think about it, was a very clever way to keep me out of trouble), I knew how they acted when they were moderately healthy (read: didn’t need to be in the hospital) and could tell when things weren’t “right” and picked up a lot from the adults around me reacting to their situations.

And I’m sure that memory (and my mom’s telling of the stories, which is irritating) filled in a lot of what wasn’t previously there. For example, she tells people that I described what my grandfather was wearing when he died. For her, this is proof that I had some sort of connection to his spirit as he was passing. It’s never occurred to her that he was in a hospital - what else would he be wearing but a hospital gown? So the “supernatural” aspects of the story are often just as much in eye of the beholder as they are in the eye of the one having the experience.

I agree with your mom. We think we know about things because someone told us “it’s this way.” First we don’t know what dreams really are, why we have them, what they mean. This sort of thing can’t be researched at all, so there are just a lot of assumptions. Second you have done a lot of assuming about the situation which assumptions carry no weight, they are basically “what if” mind exercises.

You can’t explain this world we live in and ignore spirituality. It will never work for you.

[overlyverbose]

@lekatt

I agree with your mom. We think we know about things because someone told us “it’s this way.” First we don’t know what dreams really are, why we have them, what they mean. This sort of thing can’t be researched at all, so there are just a lot of assumptions. Second you have done a lot of assuming about the situation which assumptions carry no weight, they are basically “what if” mind exercises.

You can’t explain this world we live in and ignore spirituality. It will never work for you.

Perhaps you can’t ignore spirituality (or at least the roles it plays in many people’s lives); however, a dream of that nature I think is best described as the brain ruminating on the data available to it and coming to a logical conclusion. I had all the input I needed, even as a kid, to understand that my grandfather wasn’t going to get better. I knew intellectually what death meant, knew that people could get so sick they’d stop living and probably heard enough from my family without realizing it to know what would happen next, so it makes sense that that was the conclusion I reached.

I’m struggling to find an adequate, non-trite analogy but can’t come up with anything other than it’s like predicting that the sun will set in the evening and rise in the morning. People get old and, as they get older, if their bodies have not yet failed them, they do so eventually and then they die. There’s nothing paranormal about it, and even a child can tell when someone’s body isn’t doing what it’s supposed to.

[lekatt]

@overlyverbose

Perhaps you can’t ignore spirituality (or at least the roles it plays in many people’s lives); however, a dream of that nature I think is best described as the brain ruminating on the data available to it and coming to a logical conclusion. I had all the input I needed, even as a kid, to understand that my grandfather wasn’t going to get better. I knew intellectually what death meant, knew that people could get so sick they’d stop living and probably heard enough from my family without realizing it to know what would happen next, so it makes sense that that was the conclusion I reached.

I’m struggling to find an adequate, non-trite analogy but can’t come up with anything other than it’s like predicting that the sun will set in the evening and rise in the morning. People get old and, as they get older, if their bodies have not yet failed them, they do so eventually and then they die. There’s nothing paranormal about it, and even a child can tell when someone’s body isn’t doing what it’s supposed to.

More assumptions, maybe they are right, maybe not. There are people who have dreams of the future that come true. Things they had no knowledge of at all. Who can say. The link I left earlier is a good one.

I remember when my wife’s father was in the hospital very sick. We took turns, one staying with him while the other slept. I was home sleeping when I became aware of someone standing near my bed, whoever it was said “it is time for you to go back to the hospital.” I really don’t know whether I was dreaming or not. I got up quickly and dressed, the phone rang informing me of my father-in-laws death. I knew that already from the manner and tone of my unseen visitor’s voice.

[Freudian_Slit]

@lekatt

I agree with your mom. We think we know about things because someone told us “it’s this way.” First we don’t know what dreams really are, why we have them, what they mean. This sort of thing can’t be researched at all, so there are just a lot of assumptions. Second you have done a lot of assuming about the situation which assumptions carry no weight, they are basically “what if” mind exercises.

How can you agree with the mom when overlyverbose is the one who had the “experience” and has explained how it happened? She didn’t say that a ghost came to her or that she saw god. She just said that she knew people were worried that her grandfather was dying, she knew he was in the hospital, and then she had a dream about him dying. Where is the mystical part? If I overhear my parents talking about taking a trip to Six Flags to surprise me, have a dream about going there, and then wake up saying I already know about it, do you think my parents would be right to think something eerie was going on?

[lekatt]

@Freudian_Slit

How can you agree with the mom when overlyverbose is the one who had the “experience” and has explained how it happened? She didn’t say that a ghost came to her or that she saw god. She just said that she knew people were worried that her grandfather was dying, she knew he was in the hospital, and then she had a dream about him dying. Where is the mystical part? If I overhear my parents talking about taking a trip to Six Flags to surprise me, have a dream about going there, and then wake up saying I already know about it, do you think my parents would be right to think something eerie was going on?

I thought I explained it well. Dreams are spiritual. This is as good a definition of dreams as whatever the current materialistic belief about them. You can’t research dreams, we don’t know what they are or what they mean. There are multiple assumptions of what dreams are, but no real knowledge. People do have dreams of the future that come true. People do learn things they didn’t know from dreams.

As long as people believe they are created by their brains, most of the world will remain a mystery to them. Especially since we have good research to the contrary.

[Freudian_Slit]

@lekatt

I thought I explained it well. Dreams are spiritual. This is as good a definition of dreams as whatever the current materialistic belief about them. You can’t research dreams, we don’t know what they are or what they mean. There are multiple assumptions of what dreams are, but no real knowledge. People do have dreams of the future that come true. People do learn things they didn’t know from dreams.

As long as people believe they are created by their brains, most of the world will remain a mystery to them. Especially since we have good research to the contrary.

But if you dream about something you already know, where’s the spirituality? If you know your grandfather is dying in the hospital and you dream he dies, how is that at all spiritual? It seems very logical. Similarly, if you overhear that your parents are taking you on an amusement park trip and you dream it, and then you later inform them that you already knew about it, is that spiritual? And if not, why is the grandfather thing “spiritual” when the amusement park thing isn’t?

[garygnu]

@overlyverbose

…There wasn’t anything supernatural about it - I was just paying attention and the next logical thing happened…

This is pretty much it, with some of that incredible childhood imagination added in.

[VinylTurnip]

@lekatt

Children are great psychics since they haven’t been taught that such a thing is impossible. They have imaginery friends that are not imaginery. They have near death experiences, the whole nine yards. They also are not prone to telling false events. Dr. Melvin Morse is a children’s doctor and has been keeping a list of what the kids tell him that come true or are true. His site:

http://www.melvinmorse.com/light.htm

Well, well, well. Look what lekatt dragged in!

[begbert2]

@lekatt

I thought I explained it well. Dreams are spiritual. This is as good a definition of dreams as whatever the current materialistic belief about them. You can’t research dreams, we don’t know what they are or what they mean. There are multiple assumptions of what dreams are, but no real knowledge. People do have dreams of the future that come true. People do learn things they didn’t know from dreams.

Given that the vast majority, if not all of my dreams involve overtly fictional characters (like, cartoon characters) doing absurd and irrational and stupid things, calling them spiritual sounds to me a lot like calling the spiritual itself fictional, irrational, and dumb.

And I know what dreams are. They’re like daydreams. Which are like imagination. Which is like fiction. Not complicated.

@lekatt

As long as people believe they are created by their brains, most of the world will remain a mystery to them. Especially since we have good research to the contrary.

It isn’t a mystery to me, and we don’t have good research to the contrary. Bad research, maybe. (But I don’t care about that kind.)

[lekatt]

@VinylTurnip

Well, well, well. Look what lekatt dragged in!

Yes, It is an important link, in the wake of numerous links on research in this field. He didn’t believe it either until he seen it with his own eyes.

“I regard the existence of disincarnate spirits as scientifically proved, and I no longer refer to the skeptic as having any right to speak on the subject”

Prof. James Hyslop, Columbia University

[lekatt]

@begbert2

Given that the vast majority, if not all of my dreams involve overtly fictional characters (like, cartoon characters) doing absurd and irrational and stupid things, calling them spiritual sounds to me a lot like calling the spiritual itself fictional, irrational, and dumb.

And I know what dreams are. They’re like daydreams. Which are like imagination. Which is like fiction. Not complicated.

It isn’t a mystery to me, and we don’t have good research to the contrary. Bad research, maybe. (But I don’t care about that kind.)

I have never heard of anyone having daydreams like sleep dreams. I don’t believe you. Any reasearch that don’t confirm your beliefs would be bad research.

You could understand most of your dreams if you knew what they were. Just because they look irrational and dumb, doesn’t necessarily mean that is true.

[lekatt]

@garygnu

This is pretty much it, with some of that incredible childhood imagination added in.

There is nothing logical about life and death.

[Freudian_Slit]

So is any dream we have, according to you, lekatt spiritual? Or is it only the ones that “seem” spiritual?