Ummmm-- several years ago I saw an exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History’s Hall of Man in Asia about Chinese Jews. Their numbers may be small now, but there were a lot more of them at one time, apparently. There were photographs, and everything. They looked like ordinary Chinese folk. Evidently there was a lot of intermarrying, or else those Jews were incredibly successfgul proselytizers.
The AMNH wasn’t suggesting that these were the remnants of the Lost Tribes or anything like that, but there certainly was an anomalous colony of Jewish Chinese folk existing well into the twentieth century.
Discussing Jews in China and looking up “Chinese Jews” on Google, it isn’t always clear whether they’re talking about foreign nationals, or ethnic Chinese who follow Judaism. Maybe we should say “Jewish presence in China”, because it’s starting to get into “What is a Jew?”
No, I will not go “read” some nameless font of evidence that agrees with you. No, I will not restructure my direct responses to what you said because you are having trouble reading them. No, I will not provide more evidence when you are dismissive of the many cites I have already provided, and offer little in return.
Ah, yes, the “truth.” Whatever. Your ad hominem style of argumentation is tiresome. As for your concerns about “stirring me up,” I have no plans to travel to China anytime soon, especially not to fight an internet bully. Rest easy, you are only threatened by yourself, and your unwillingness to respond in an impersonal fashion to any argument.
Look up “deniability,” it is an intelligence term. Your last statement sounds like you fall for it. Or, better yet, study the history of Soviet pilots in Korea, or Soviet “advisors” in Vietnam. Maybe you could review the dozens of pilots shot down during the “Cold” War. No, not just Powers. Your bald assertion we “would know” about any military movements is facile. If you think sattelite intelligence is infallible, yikes! I assume you know about all diplomatic discussions undertaken?
China Guy You just rehashed everything I already argued against. There is little point in going back and restating my arguments in response to “capitalism.” If you cannot respond to the obvious disconnect between foreign policy and economics, I can only agree to disagree.
I lived in Austria for a while, I don’t pretend to foreclose any discussion about Austria simply because I was there. Please, stop with the “read this.” If you have an argument, take the time to outline it, or post a link. Your “half-assed” assertion looks ill-considered in the face of the four links I posted, not to mention all the links Duck Duck Goose has found.
You were wrong. Moreover, you are wrong about the “just foreign nationals” assertion.
You believe the Chinese government (egads!), and have not provided one criticism. Stop with the condescension and argue.
This approaches an argument. You could post some of “all the evidence,” you refuse to cite. Other than Taiwan and China improving things above the level of the brink of war, I wonder what you are talking about.
In conclusion, Three Amigos of China, because I see nothing else new except personal insults directed at me, wait and see. It may take years before the truth comes out. You might be very surprised if you knew some of the “truths” about military involvements undertaken by Russia, the Soviets, China, and the United States. Much of it was recently declassified or came out of the KGB archives, feel free to educate yourselves. You have problems with me having pointed out China is communistic, and therefore feel free to sling personal attacks. Unfortunate that you all seem to think “McCarthyism” only cuts one way.
It is a writer’s job to make themselves understood to thier audience, not the audience’s job to figure out what the author meant. You think that only a drooling idiot could be misunderstanding you? Then rewrite your arguement in a way we drooling idiots can understand.
Beagle, just a quick run through on my resume, which you have to take on faith. I have undergraduate degrees in Economics (international emphasis after switching from International Relations) and Mandarin Chinese, plus an MBA; worked in Taiwan, Hong Kong and China for about 15 years, my wife and daughter are Chinese, and we currently reside in Shanghai; am the author of a published guidebook on China; provide investment and China analysis for the past 10 years, current clients include Morgan Stanley Asset Management and the Kemper/Zurich group. Given my China background, I have a higher standard than some unsubstantiated, counter-intuitive and dubious internet claims.
I have yet to see a reputable cite to back up your assertation that China is infiltrating troops into Afganistan. I would even settle for a plausible explanation why such behavior would make sense. You have heard from both myself and others on the board why it is counterintuitive for China to infiltrate troops.
Chinese Jews have nothing to do with the OP. Might make a separate topic. Duck, sorry the article on the Chinese government recognizing ¡°Jews¡± as an official Chinese minority group has no cite. I¡¯ve been on google and can¡¯t find anything. I¡¯ve never heard of this before. That was the time of the Mongol dynasty and Marco Polo, and there was not likely to have been a foreign community in Kaifeng. Marco Polo, if it¡¯s not a work of fiction, does not mention this Jewish community. China has been closed to non-Chinese and deeply xenophobic for most of it¡¯s history and please remember in the 12th century traveling to China by land or by sea would have been extremely difficult. I am extremely dubious that the Chinese government has recognized an official Chinese Jewish minority.
There is a big difference between Jewish traders that may have visited China and even settled here, and a real Jewish community made up of Chinese believers. Also a big difference on the Jewish foreign community over the past 150 years, including the WW2 refugees. There were many famous capitalist family dynasties that were Jewish, and the Kadoorie family of Shanghai springs to mind. These people fled the Mainland after the Revolution of 1949. There were but a handful of foreigners that remained in China after 1949.
For what it is worth, I also checked with a friend of mine who is an active member of the Shanghai Jewish community and a Sinophile, and he has never seen evidence of a Chinese Jewish group.
Regardless of the validity of the Tiananmen Papers, they have little bearing on China today and nothing to do with the OP. There are tons of links. Here is one that simplistically lays out both sides of the argument. http://www.sinomania.com/CHINANEWS/tiananmen_papers.htm
Here’s what you have submitted on message boards dedicated to fighting ignorance:
-ridicule and derision
-whimsical dismissal of valid, accepted sources
-insistence on acceptance of weak, unverified sources
-utterly unfounded paranoid conspiracy theories
-misinformed general anti-communist ranting
-diversions from the argument along the lines of “you guys are insulting me” general whining
-a variation of the tired old line “they laughed at Galileo too”
I consider China Guy’s latest effort to discuss this topic with you a very courteous move.
So, yeah, there may be Chinese troops on the Afghan border, but they’re not there to support the Taliban, they’re there to keep Afghans from coming into China.
If they don’t recognize the regime, why would they send troops to help them? Oh, wait, I know–that’s more of those secret military involvements…
And it mentions this:
They’re not going to interfere in Afghanistan because they don’t wanna get put on any future “The War Against Global Terrorism” hit lists that Dubya might generate.
I give up. If Beagle insists on an irrational, unsubstantiated chasing of shadows, and if “wait and see” is the best he can come up with, then I can’t be bothered debating with him any further. Tiresome and irritating. Abe, if you want to catch up for lunch at some stage, let me know.
This story was in the South China Morning Post and also on Bloomberg. The following is a quote from SCMP:
“China has barred people from 19 Middle East and nearby countries from flying on any of its state-run airlines in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States.” Now this has not been officially been pronounced by the Chinese government, so take it with a grain of salt. Please see here for the complete link: http://china.scmp.com/ZZZIG27XMSC.html
So, if true, and if the DEBKA report is true, then China is infiltrating troops to Afganistan at the exact same time it is trying to prevent Islamic extremists from even flying on Chinese airlines. What’s your take on this Beagle?
[hijack]To the rest of the Gang of Three, Dave and Abe, dang guys I was in honky town on Tue/Wed for a job interview. Might be moving back real soon. Let ya know.[/hijack]
[please excuse the hijack]
Dave, I think you need to go in your profile and click “no” on “Hide e-mail address” or you can’t be reached. Anyway, as I am getting married shortly I will be blissfully unavailable for at least a month! Chinaguy let us know if you do end up moving to HK.
How about this. Or, Pravda. How long before other media jump on it?
Motive? How about fighting U.S. “hegemony,” China loves that one. Two, weaken the U.S. military to simplify an attack on Taiwan. Or, three, protect the sphere of influence China covets. Four, maybe China has ties to Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
Please, call me crazy again, I love it. Or, do a Yahoo search and type in “China Taliban cruise missiles,” plenty more sources confirm this.
Just a hijack, but there are Jewish populations in Shanghai and Hong Kong. There’s also the story of the Jews of Kai-feng.(Kai-feng had a Jewish community from sometime in the 12th century to the turn of the 20th century, and the community has since disappeared and been assimilated)
I’ve been checking around, including with members of the Shanghai Jewish community. As far as I can find out, there is no indigenous Chinese population of practicing Jews at this time, if there ever were. Yes, it does seem like the Kai-feng thing might be real, but I haven’t seen the research myself.
Beagle, doesn’t matter if the Washington Post or other papers cite DEBKA if the DEBKA information is flawed.
Take a look at a map, China is the only non-Muslim country that borders Afganistan. Characterized as have the “closest” relationship can mean absolutely nothing if that’s just a couple of trade missions that got rebuffed, and there is no evidence that more than that has taken place. No one, including the Chinese deny that they have sent business groups to Afganistan. Certainly, those business groups also had an intelligence gathering brief. The cruise missle thing is the most plausible conspiracy you’ve tossed out, and that was several years ago and again not confirmed. The last China delegation sent to Afganistan that I know of to sell a mobile phone network came back in failure, and that was May or June maybe. You know, since China and Afganistan share a border, that maybe they have some sort of relationship. That does not mean ally.
I actually looked at your links (excepting the post link, which won’t download for me). Unsubstantiated. Here’s your source: “Unknown to the two men, the flat was bugged by Italian anti-terrorist police.” I would not characterize that as proof.
Once again, I would suggest you actually learn about modern China and geo-politics and realize that the Cold War is over.
I’m a little less sanguine about the new, improved China. Sure, the economy has opened up and city people are doing better than ever before and Jiang is pushing WTO membership. However, the leadership also desires China to start projecting itself beyond its borders and dominate its neighbors, not to mention a vein of chauvinistic anti-Americanism. Some Chinese (who knows how many, because it’s not the kind of thing one could poll) felt the WTO attack was the US’ comeuppance, or repayment for bombing the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia.
But I still don’t see them sending troops to help the Taliban, mostly because of their problems with their own fundamentalists. And if Chinese combatants have been killed, it doesn’t mean that the Chinese government sent them there to support the Taleban. They may have been there on their own. Or maybe some “intelligence” officer saw non-Turkic East Asians speaking Chinese and assumed that they were there at the government’s behest. But in addition to the Uighurs, there are also East Asian-looking moslems, some of whom might find the ideology attractive.
Three years ago, or even just a few months ago, things were different. Yes, the Chinese was trying to get a little closer to the Taliban to get them to stop supporting the Xinjiang separatists, but got nothing for their efforts.
Hell, a few years before that, even the “imperialist” US was supporting the Taliban.
The cruise missiles? Did you miss that one? With that one bit of evidence we have extant military links between China, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban.
Cold warrior? Ad hominem: where to go when you have no citations to back up what you are claiming. At least I know something about what happened during the Cold War. I do not trust the Chinese government reflexively, as you do. If that makes me a cold warrior, I wear that badge with pride. I guess me citing Pravda really threw you, but I fear you did not even notice. The Russian communists agree with me on this one, DEBKA is a source. Now you tell me that they are not a reliable source, you cold warrior.
No, you did not miss the cruise missiles. You simply dismissed it as old news because it happened a whopping three years ago. In a culture with a memory going back through the millenia, still mindful of the Brits and opium, you sure do allow for a short half-life of what is useful information.
Beagle, I read your Pravda cite. All it does is quote DEBKA, which does not mean DEBKA is correct.
Evidence? The cruise missiles citation you have is unsubstantiated. Let me repeat, the link you have provided cites unnamed sources within the Italian anti-terrorist police. What kind of proof is that? And even if it were true, the US is also in the business of getting information about it’s enemies/rivals. I seem to remember American military spy planes flying off the coast of China to gather military intelligence just a few months ago.
Please bring up some sort of reputible cites and that does not mean a cite of the DEBKA cite like Pravda. As I said ages ago, I’d be happy even with a plausible theory why China would want to send easily traced troops to fight for OBL.
phartizan – you’re correct that Chinese nationalism is a pretty dangerous thing, especially as the government here tries to play that card on occaision.
Sigh. I didn’t realise this thread was still a going concern.
I have no illusions about the Chinese government. I think it has dangerous territorial ambitions - many mainland maps of China claim Everest is in its borders. And then there are the maritime territorial disputes with Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines. It is increasingly assertive in the world.
I think China has often adopted an aggressive stance towards the United States, especially in respect of its support of Taiwan. China is very sensitive to criticism over Tibet. (The refusal to allow the Dalai Lama to speak at the UN world religious conference a few years back was abominable.) China caused a domestic storm over the bombing of its embassy in Belgrade. It could have not done that, as it chose not to with the US spy plane on Hainan island. China is hardly a close friend of America.
As much as I am in support of any country which seeks to throw off its colonial shackles, I think Britain made a mistake in handing back Hong Kong to China (not that Thatcher had very much choice). Already, the decline in the rule of law here is noticeable. Hong Kong would have been better off being its own country, like Singapore.
I’m saying this so I can avoid being painted with the partisan brush you have daubed China Guy with.
So, as an occaisional critic of China, I think what you’re saying just makes no sense.
Anti-hegemonism is better achieved through alliances with regional powers like Russia, India and Japan. Not through sending soldiers to their deaths by American bombs in a (with respect to any Afghans) very unimportant country.
Weakening the US military? Until the election of the current President, it has been American military policy to be able to fight any two major conventional wars anywhere in the world. No one else can do that. So even if you halved the military strength of the US, and left the US involved in Afghanistan, it can still fight the Chinese over Taiwan. Sending a bunch of guys to fight the US without air support is not going to weaken the US military.
Cruise missiles? The only ones I’ve seen in Afghanistan were made in the USA or the UK. Do you know how much cruise missile technology costs? Afghanistan is dirt poor. They rely on AK47s and pick-up trucks.
I don’t think you’re crazy - I think you’re just too stubborn to see the absence of logic in what you’re advocating. You’re saying China would send cannon fodder to Afghanistan in order to annoy America. Its unsubstantiable. You under-estimate your own country’s might in the world, and under-estimate China’s ability to perceive that.
