Now, is there any solid evidence that they were actually here before Columbus?
This seems kinda fishy to me.
Evidence, yes. Solid evidence, no. There is some circumstancial evidence of the usual type: sculptures that sort of look like elephants, ancient tales that have a few segments that sound almost like some parts of the ancient Americas. There were also some stone anchors discovered off the California coast of a type used by Chinese vessels in ancient times, but Chinese fishermen could also have left the anchors. Beyond the anchors, it’s more creative interpretations of Aztec art and myths and less solid archaeology.
As to the theory in the article, one has to ask why the Chinese did not do anything other than pose for sculptures, and did not take anything back other than a map.
The same claims are made about Australia.
Chinese artifacts have been found in the north of the country, but the usual problem with carbon dating them applies: we can find out the age, but not when they were put there.
Eurpoean explorers came to Australia before England’s Captain James Cook officially “discovered” it in the eighteenth century, but they landed on the desert coasts, deemed the country a waste of time, and turned back. The only reason the British liked it is because they made it as far as the greener east coast - with the French not far behind.
It’s possible that the Chinese also came and didn’t bother with it. Some historians assert that sailors from what is now Indonesia and beyond engaged in semi-regular trade with the aborigines in Australia’s north.
As an interesting fotnote to this, there is an aboriginal language spoken in the north-west which contains a smattering of Portuguese words.
Disclaimer: Yes, I use the word “discover” in a limited way. The aborigines have been here for at least forty thousand years.
Australia, though, is a different situation entirely from America. One can reach Australia from China without having to sail far from land, and the trip would be much easier than a transoceanic voyage to America. The possibility of the Chinese discovering Australia is much more likely (and also much less historically significant) than the same people landing in America.
In an atlas I saw when I was in grade school, on a map of North America indicating early explorations, this message appeared near San Francisco Bay:
Chinese
5th Century
?
In one edition of the Book of Lists, two Chinese scientists named Hsi and Ho allegedly sailed across the Pacific, presumably at the time suggested in the atlas. (These two were later killed by the Chinese Emperior for failing to predict an eclipse of the sun correctly.)
In an atlas I saw when I was in grade school, on a map of North America indicating early explorations, this message appeared near San Francisco Bay:
Chinese
5th Century
?
In one edition of the Book of Lists, two Chinese scientists named Hsi and Ho allegedly sailed across the Pacific, presumably at the time suggested in the atlas. (These two were later killed by the Chinese Emperor for failing to predict an eclipse of the sun correctly.)
As for Australia: In one of Jack Chick’s more reactionary tracts, one panel shows a map of Australia supposedly used in China–labeled (in English, oddly enough) “New China.”
Hey, I’m sorry!!I added that last paragraph about Australia as an afterthought and apparently didn’t push the STOP button fast enough! :o
If the Chinese visited America before Westerners, why didn’t they bring anything back? Did they look at potatoes, tomatoes, bell peppers, sweetcorn, chilis, turkeys, etc etc, and say “naah, we don’t need this barbarian garbage.” (I wouldn’t put it past them.)
One of the problems with this sort of subject is that the Chinese get a kick out of making all manner of dubious or bizarre claims about ancient China in an effort to feel better about themselves. The “we found America” claim is an old one. Another is that mammals originated in China. They have also (on some occasions) claimed to have some Peking Man DNA in them, making them different from other humans. And they once claimed to be able to do major surgery using only accupuncture. Oh, and don’t forget that you can see the Great Wall from the moon.
Their archaeology has on occasion been heavily politicized.
This is a new one on me.
The Chinese generally like to take credit for having done just about everything first. Gunpowder, check; paper, check; moveable type, check; democracy, check (abandoned as being inefficient); paper money, check; ad nauseum. The National Palace Museum in Taipei has a prominent timeline showing where China invented something and when it was much later invented in the west. Joseph Needham’s built a respected academic career out of researching when China discovered or invented stuff, and you can read multiple volumes of his series Science and Civilization".
Chinese have made claims to territory based on extremely tenuous claims of exploration hundreds if not thousands of years ago.
Not saying it’s impossible that the Chinese beat the Europeans to America, but if that was believed in China you sure would have heard about it before now.
From what I remember of history the Vikings beat everybody over except American Indians. Didn’t they land over a hundred years before Columbus? Anyway the big thing about Columbus’ discovery is once he made it people actually started a concerted effort to repeat the voyage.
I’ve read evidence of the Chinese being here before Columbus, but the claims were usually for an earlier era, and for being on the West coast – things like weird artifacts in San Francisco Bay and the like. This guy’s claims, from what I’ve seen on TV, are that a Chinese fleet preceded Columbus by less than a century, and landed on the East cost, in Narragansett Bay. That is, to my knowledge, a brand new claim, and I’d like to hear more about it. In particular I 'd like to hear some Confirmation fromj Chinese records. So, apparently, would the guy making the claims .
There was a longer article about this in the March 17 New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/17/science/social/17SHIP.html.
(The article’s still free to access, as of this posting.)
I read a book a few months ago called, Facts, Myths, and something else in Archaeology by I think Feeder, sorry I don’t have the book in front of me. The book was about showing how these types of theories come along. One of them was about the Chinese coming to America.
I remember the one about China being wrong and he said that the Chinese use the same building materials ways etc for long periods of time so it is vry difficult to prove that they were here. He mostly said that he didnt believe they came before anyone mostly because they didn’t bring anything back nor leave anything besides the few boat ancors that could have been left at anytime.
If someone really wants I can pull the whole cite for it, but it might take awhile because of all the stuff I’ve been moving.
China Guy- are you implying that they didn’t discover/invent some of these things first? it seems like the general consensus is that these are true. i find it difficult to believe that western society would help perpetuate these theories by printing them in all the textbooks if they are indeed just cultural propaganda.
Hemlock- i don’t like your tone
Kryptonite2:
Just what, specifically, do you fine objectionable about Hemlock’s tone? His post read to me as a pretty modest and rational statement of a reasonable opinion. Surely you must concede that archeology with an agenda in not unknown.
There is no solid evidence, but there is likely evidence. For example, it is rather accepted fact that the Chinese has ships that were capable of getting to America and back. However, the Chinese worldview was quite what Hemlock was hinting at. That is, part of the reason the Chinese were so adament about keeping foreigners out of China for many centuries is that they viewed themselves as the imperial Middle Kingdom, far above all the other countries. So, essentially, as Hemlock pointed out, they may well have had no interest in goods and products from the Americas.
Here’s a synopsis about the Chinese admiral in question:
http://www.oceansonline.com/zheng.htm
This Admiral Zheng was a pretty worthy character. Born a peasent he was taken POW in a war and summarily castrated. Eventually though he dedicated himself to study and won the favor of a prince, who gave him the control of an exploratory fleet. Zheng’s ships were massive and much more powerful than any European contemporary.
I saw a clip on this guy on Headline News Channel, saying how he’s studied the subject for 14 years, no small task. Still, though, I don’t think the evidence is yet convincing.
On another note, this thread has inspired me to play Europa Universalis. Maybe the Chinese will find the New World first…
Perhaps they had no interest in goods from the Americas, but I find it unlikely. At any rate, the Americans would have been interested in Chinese goods, and the Chinese did trade with other countries at the time of widespread exploration, which predated China’s closed door policies. In fact, the long oversea voyages ended abruptly when a new emporer decided to close China to the outside world, IIRC. Also, the Chinese should have unwittingly brought some Eurasian diseases to the Americas, which would have made the Aztecs less suseptible to the same diseases being brought by the Spanish. I posted a thread on that topic a couple of months ago, but I believe it was lost when the boards went offline.
Hemlock, I think maybe what China Guy was trying to get at was that the things which the Chinese did invent or discover are well known in China and are celebrated. Because the Chinese don’t talk about it maybe they didn’t do it. It is not concrete evidence, but I think he has a point.