Really? Americans pointing their finger to anyone else regarding the environment?
That is rich.
And that is the fallacy of tu quoque
Although ozone destruction and CO2 output have global consequences, China is mostly fouling its own nest. They are breathing polluted air and eating food grown in polluted soil and irrigated with polluted water. In the US, it took us decades to learn that we couldn’t just spew shit into the environment and hope for the best. It wasn’t a question of having enough excess wealth to go green, it was a matter of learning that we had to go green. There was also the matter of developing green tech that didn’t previously exist. Now that we (not just the US, but the global we) know it’s necessary to run green, and we have the tech to make it happen, China is clearly making a choice to compromise the health and quality of life of its citizens in favor of economic growth.
Which, frankly, is a shortsighted choice. Workers who are sick all the time (or are taking care of sick family members) are less productive, and spend more on health care. Kids who grow up in polluted environs miss out on school due to illness (ask the parent of any kid with asthma), and suffer from neurological deficits due to the direct effect of pollution on their brains; they grow up to be less productive, less intelligent adults than they would be if pollution were held under control.
China always seems to get a pass on this board. The standard argument, and true to form in this thread is ‘well, America is worse’. So, you can’t criticize China if you are an American, and if you aren’t an American you need to ensure you bring up the US anyway, even when a thread is about some other country.
That said, where have you been? China is one of the worst environmental nations on the planet. While much is said about their green energy program (much of which they stole the technology from other nations), no one around here seems to talk about the fact that they are also building more coal fired plants than anyone. They have managed to pollute a large percentage of their water supply, to make their air quality some of the worst in the world, to pump out more CO2 than I think the next 5 countries (including the US) combined, to adulterate their products and build ghost cities to prop up their real estate market (which are falling apart since they are build so cheaply and quickly), and a host of other things (we won’t even get into their human rights violations). But it’s all good because the US is evil and we should talk about the US more. We could, of course, have a pit thread about the US, but if anyone mentions another country it’s going to be shouted down (rightfully) as tu quoque. Thus far, I only see Mr. Dibble pointing this out.
Not that Trump is going after their CFC production (he probably doesn’t know or care about the issue), but I’d say his latest escalation in the trade war (if he actually goes through with $500 billion in additional tariffs) will have the unexpected consequence of curbing the issue in the OP at least marginally. Really, though, it needs to be the consumers, especially consumers of China’s vast export business, who need to take a hand and vote with their pocketbooks. For my part, I check everything I buy now. There are bar code readers that can tell you what company sells or manufactures the product you are buying and if you dig a bit you can figure out if it’s a Chinese company who ultimately made it. I do this for all our pet food and pet products after having a favored dog die due to adulterated Chinese pet food about 20 years ago. I won’t buy anything from China if I can help it. That’s hard with some things, as they manufacture parts that are used in a wide swath of products (cars, cell phones, etc) but I draw the line at anything related to food for the family or our pets.
You can criticize China all you want, but others are going to put such criticism into its proper context by pointing a few inconvenient truths that Americans don’t always want to hear. Yes, to some extent China should get a pass because its economic growth until recently has depended on occupying the industrial niche in the global economy.
As much as any country, China’s government wants to move away from that space. They also, more than any country on earth, have more to lose by abandoning environmental sustainability. See, unlike the political power that controls the United States, China doesn’t deny global climate change, and it doesn’t deny the impact that it’s going to have on its country and political future. It does have nearly one and a half billion people to look out for. And unlike Americans, China understands its own history, even if it tries to manufacturing reality in the present. China’s history is full of political revolutions that have produced rivers of blood, and the relationship between environmental pressure and political stability is so real that even our own military dedicates time to analyze the topic. China’s not blind. It knows what’s at stake. But it, like any other country, has to address near-term reality as well as long-term reality.
China’s not the one abandoning the Paris accords. It’s not China’s head of state who believes global climate change is a hoax. It’s not their head of state who’s removing his own government’s scientific data on global climate change, destroying its environmental protection agency, removing environmental regulations, and engaging in a Maoist-like purge of scientists who have authored papers supporting already well-established science on humankind’s impact on climate.
Americans can criticize China, but they’ll probably just tell Americans to shut the fuck up and come back to the discussion when a majority of their country lives in a world of fact-based reality.
China’s e-waste is the world’s e-waste. About 70% of the e-waste in China has come from outside its own borders, most likely from North America. It’s rich how Americans can claim that they’re environmentally enlightened when all they’ve done is shit in their neighbor’s outhouse instead of their own.
You figure that at this late date that anyone is NOT aware of the US’s environmental record? That it just needs to be brought up…again…and again…and again…in every thread about everything? Do we REALLY need to discuss the US in every thread, regardless of the topic?
As to China and the Paris Accords, the reason they aren’t abandoning them is that they got a pass on them. It allows them to do pretty much what they have been doing, and it’s so vague and self regulatory that there is no reason they would abandon them. Even if we only narrowly talk about CO2 (which isn’t what the OP was about, but like America it has to be brought into every discussion about the environment), China produces more than the US and the other top 4 emitters…combined. And this is perfectly cool with the Paris Accords because China is a developing country that hasn’t had all the breaks and centuries of CO2 emissions, etc etc. They won’t have to start cracking down until, IIRC, the 2030’s (been a while since I’ve looked into it so could be way off on this). But broadening from CO2, the Paris Accords don’t say shit about other environmental pollutants. Yet as the OP pointed out, CFC’s are a threat as well…and one that most of the world had gotten under control a decade ago.
Most of what China does wrt harming the environment really hurts them the most. But some things go beyond their borders. And people need to wake up and stop giving them a pass because the US does bad things. You can, well, rail against both you know. You could go whole hog and pit China (just as something different) AND feel the US is a bunch of slimy dog environmental destroyers as well! And you (not you specifically, but those who feel the need to do this sort of thing) could, at this late date, assume everyone is aware that the US are a bunch of slimy dog polluters and not feel the need to bring them up in every discussion.
Or not. Hell, some folks still feel the need to bring up Bush (or Obama) in discussions that aren’t about them because to quoque is so much fun.
Cite?
And that doesn’t explain or pardon the stuff that ends up in the sea.
It’s not the mere fact that they’re processing e-waste - it’s about how they do it:
The US is not a signatory to the Basel Convention and has been exporting most of its e-waste to China and India for decades.
You must be from the Mid-West, to have all that straw available…
It’s not about “America is worse”. It’s not about the US Army. It’s about Western countries rapid post-war industrialization and economic development. It’s about how we (all of we, Europe included) fucked up the environment thoroughly in our own get rich quick scheme. We fucked it up for them, too. And now we collectively want to turn around and tut-tut the next guys doing it because they aren’t doing clean solar high tech like us. I swear, it’s like looking down on those backwards, barbaric countries that don’t have gay marriage when HELLO, gays were *lynched *out herein my lifetime. Fuck that.
You made the big bucks dirty. They want the big bucks, too, and if they have to do it dirty, so be it. Why should they be stuck in the 1940s ? Why should they forever and ever be “that country that makes all the cheap shit” ? They want the SUVs, the high speed internet, the air conditioning, the junk food, the 5$ dresses sewn by children from third world countries with no arms. They want, in fact, to be like America or Europe. Who the fuck are you to tell them they shouldn’t get that because, um, that’s like, inconvenient to you ? Are you going to give the big bucks to them so they don’t have to get it all the dirty way ? No.
Then sit down and shut up. Just like America and Europe, when they’re done doing it wrong and fast, they’ll go back to do it right and sustainable. In fact they’re already in the process of turning that dial.
And if this bullshit rant really was about preserving the planet for all of us, you’d be tripping over yourself to offer them (and Africa next) cheap, heavily discounted clean tech to let them skip the shit part of the equation. Are you ? No. So sit down. And shut up.
China is America’s landfill, and America’s finally had enough of it.
Film at 11.
Environmental awareness wasn’t always a thing. We did it dirty back then because we didn’t know any better. The EPA wasn’t postponed until 1970 because we finally said “OK, we’re rich enough, let’s start tidying up a little.” It was created in 1970 because we finally looked around and said “ohmygod, we are really fucking this place up, and it’s gotta stop.”
China doesn’t have that excuse.
Let’s start off with the sit down and shut up part. I’ll respond by saying stick it up your ass and fuck you very much. Now that we’ve established we are in the pit, let’s move on.
The bulk of your post seems to be about strawmen and a rant about my supposed position. Let’s start with your accusation of my post being a strawman. It’s laughable. You might want to actually look up the definition, as the second part of my post will be about the irony of you calling my post a strawman then proceeding to, well, strawman me and it. As to my post being a strawman, examples of exactly what I’m talking about abound…and I don’t even need to go searching. I’ll simply invite folks to scroll up. Hell, they could simply read the majority of your post for examples. What I was referring too is the tendency to bring the US into every discussion, regardless of the topic. Want to pit China about it’s environment? Well, let’s talk about the US! Want to talk about immigration in Europe? Well, let’s talk about the US! Discussions about dictatorships in Russia or the Philippines, in China or somewhere else? Certainly let’s bring up the US! It gets old…just like it gets old when board conservatives want to endlessly bring up Obama or Clinton (either one), or board liberals want to bring Bush into every discussion (used to be Reagan…probably be Trump and Bush after this cluster fuck presidency has run its course).
Now, your post, on the other hand, is classic strawman. From evil big buck gaining corporations to tossing in gay marriage to the rest, it has zero to do with what I was saying. It’s a strawman, in short. My WAG is you, rightfully figured that you could do a ‘San Dimas High School football rulez!!!’ and count on the fact that you are a popular poster and no one would call you out on your horseshit, but horseshit it is. You could have argued against my point and said something like ‘I’ll talk about the US in a tu quoque manner all I want, dipshit, and there ‘taint nuffun’ you can do about it!’ and I probably would have shrugged and just moved on. Instead, you accused me of a strawman while posting basically a huge strawman, so I figured, fuck it, in for a penny, in for a pound.
This being the pit and our relative popularity being opposite (and you being more aligned with this board than I am in any case) I fully expect the flames to be turned to full. That’s ok. Said what I wanted to say and made my continued annoyance with every thread on every subject being about the US plain…as I’ve done when this stupid shit has come up in the past. And as I expect it will in the future.
Who the fuck cares? The atmosphere certainly doesn’t.
All this rhetoric and America bashing is great and all but it does not change the simple fact that the illegal use of CFC-11 by Chinese manufacturers is reversing the healing of the Ozone hole.
Yes, I realize that I am yelling at the wind here but sometimes you got to yell when you are pissed off, even if it is useless.
I also realize that Chinese pollution is nothing new. What is new however, is this reversing of the healing of the Ozone layer.
I admitted in the OP that as an American, I am a part of the overall world environmental problem (along with almost every other human). However, on this specific problem, the Ozone hole, the entire world, including America, got its shit together for once! And now that amazing worldwide effort is being reversed by some short shortsighted greed on the part of a very small group of cheating criminals.
It pissed me off when I read it and it still does. I did not see a thread on it here and that is why I wrote one, because I think it is important and also because I was/am pissed.
Meanwhile there are plenty of threads on global warming. This thread is not about global warming.
I am not wrong and my being an American has nothing to do with the actual facts.
So fuck off with your shut the fuck ups.
Yeah, I’m sure it was a real stunner when we found out that dumping toxic waste and heavy metals in the nearest river turned out to not be a good idea :rolleyes:. We’ve known about industrial pollution since the smog of London started killing people, and that was nearly two centuries ago.
We knew. We just didn’t give a fuck because we were busy making money and progress and infrastructure and improving comfort & living standards in the short term and the environment was someone else’s problem. Hell, we’re still doing that - hydrofracking, anyone ?
Bitch, I’m French. Notice how I kept saying “we” and “the West” ? Now go on, tell me again how everything I say is so US-centric it’s getting tiresome.
I’m a popular poster ? Fuck me, y’all inconsiderate assholes could have bothered telling *me *that. Now I gotta have all these business cards reprinted !
I accused you of strawmaning because that’s what you were doing. Nobody was giving China “a pass” before you strolled along claiming the whole world did ; and there was one post by one poster chuckling about Americans not really having the best of pedestals to give anybody else shit about environmental policies - which is fair fucking criticism. It was before Trump, it probably will be for a long time after him.
I also note that you seemed to have sailed right by the more salient points of my post. I do wonder why that is. Or the points must have sailed right by you. Either way. For example :
It has absolutely to do with what you were saying, because it is the same bullshit : First World people wagging their fingers at the rest of the world for not doing things the way we began doing them yesterday, historically speaking. It was bullshit to do that in the 18th century, it’s still bullshit doing that now. Never seems to go out of style though…
So no one from the first world is allowed to say anything concerning the environment because of history and everyone else can trash it as much as they want? That is just stupid.