Chinese restaurant called out for 'problematic' concept

I mean, if you’re happy with Vietnamese people owning a Chinese food restaurant that has a Chinese style name, but you’re unhappy about a Caucasian person doing the same, then you are the racist.

I understand. My issue is assuming the least charitable interpretation of a marketing buzzword intended to veil a universal motive.

I think you answered your own question here. It’s the same reason I get irritated by someone trying to sell me a pre-owned automobile instead of a used automobile.

Cooks can do anything. Here in Arizona, except for ethnic restaurants where the staff is entirely family, about 80% of the back-end is Hispanic.

I was called on it – by an Asian – fifty years ago. The objection is that the etymology of ‘orient’ is ‘east.’ On a globe, east of what? Why, the center of the civilized world of course – Europe.

Looking it up, ‘Asia’ derives from ‘sunrise’ but at least it’s more obscure, to say nothing of not being used by Victorian-era colonizers.

I work in a historic house not-museum* and there’s even a slow shift away from “oriental” for rugs and carpets and towards “figured” (since they have designs built into the weaving or knotting). Part of the reason is exactly what you mentioned - east of what on a round globe? It assumes Europe is the default or center of the world.

However, another reason is that there are many figured rugs that are not Asian, such as Moroccan rugs, Navajo rugs, contemporary art rugs, etc. Figured rug is a broader umbrella term that helps reduce inaccuracy.** This is also a good reason to use if someone bristles at the “wokeness” or “PC gone amok” of the first reason.

* Technically not a museum, but we give tours and have historic objects, etc.
** We make a distinction between figured and non-figured rugs because there are differences in how you clean and maintain the two types.

I tend to be pretty clueless about current trends, but even I was called out on this some 15 years ago, and it is common understanding around here.

I’m not saying that you’re wrong for dropping the word “oriental”, but I’m not sure this logic holds up. I mean, I might describe myself as a “Westerner”.
Perhaps we’re all assuming Turkmenistan is the default or center of the world :smile:

Also, FYI, the Chinese word for oriental: 东方 dongfang, is still used for lots of things in China, including new buildings.

I think it’s often a mistake to try to logically explain why a word is offensive in terms of its etymology. Because normally it’s simply whether a word has been commonly used as a pejorative and/or whether it is associated with a unpleasant period of history. Oriental has that history, dongfang does not.

Saying that a phrasing isn’t problematic because it could be used fairly misses the point entirely. I agree that if problematic words were not used in a problematic way, they would not be problematic. But that isn’t really saying much is it?

Who does this? To me, this is a made up example that doesn’t make any sense. I’m not going to pretend to know all uses of ‘elevated’ with regard to cuisine, but seriously, who speaks like that? If someone makes kick-ass Ma-po Tofu that is super tasty, it would be described as kick-ass and super tasty. I don’t see how "elevated’ enters the picture at all. “Wow, this Ma-Po Tofu is really elevated!” No.
“Elevated,” to my knowledge, is used when the dish departs from the traditional. Tastiness isn’t really part of the equation. And again, one doesn’t elevate an entire cuisine. An individual dish perhaps, but saying someone (of any race) elevates an entire cuisine is cringey.

I’ll also point out that “elevated,” at least to my knowledge, is used to describe introducing something European to Asian cooking. But when the opposite happens, and Asian influences are put into a European dish, it’s called “fusion” or an “Asian twist.” Why not “elevate” there? If stuffing a croissant with char-siu were described as “Elevating the humble Croissant” was a common thing that happened, I probably wouldn’t poke at elevated as much. But I really don’t think that sort of thing happens.

As for “Oriental,” others have already addressed the history and at least decades long view. I will say that I view “Oriental” more in line with “Colored.” It certainly isn’t to the same level as you-know-what.

But it does. All the time. If you watch any kind of cooking shows you’ll see this term used constantly. I remember Top Chef episodes where the challenges were to “elevate the common hamburger” or “elevate breakfast foods like eggs, pancakes and cereal.”

I’d see elevated as relating to haute cuisine, expressing the idea of it being food that is carefully and elaborately prepared, in contrast to everyday cooking.

It’s not so much making the cuisine better as it is approaching the cuisine from a different angle, one where presentation and artistry is valued. Where non-standard ingredients are employed to make the dish different, but still excellent.

Just as a point of explanation, this is why I hadn’t heard “elevating” in this context. I don’t watch cooking (competition) shows. I do watch public TV cooking shows (America’s Test Kitchen, Steven Raichlen, etc.), and they’ll update recipes, or make their own versions, but I’ve never heard of them “elevating” a dish.

And, as another point, within 10 miles of my house, there are many Chinese restaurants, usually run (or at least staffed) by Asians. But that’s not my point. My point with this is the food is all the same – the menus are the same, the sweet and sour sauce is all the same sugary orange glop; it’s as if every single restaurant buys their food from one source. So in that sense, I wouldn’t mind a little “elevating”.

Dish versus cuisine. I think that point has been made before.

The point I’m trying to make is that in food writing, “elevated” refers to European techniques on non_European cuisine, but they don’t refer to Asian influences on European cuisine the same way.
I celebrate the chefs on Top Chef who take the Assignment to ‘elevate’ by injecting Asian techniques into a European dish, but that’s quite a different thing isn’t it?
Show me an example of a food writer describing the incorporation of Asian influences on European cuisine as ‘elevated.’
That’s where the problem comes from: the notion that you can elevate non-European cuisines, but Europe, being the pinnacle, can’t be elevated; it’s presumed to be already at the top.

That would be “yellow.”

If you were unfortunate enough to only be surrounded by McDonalds, would you say an Applebees is elevating the hamburger?

The sugary orange glop is Chinese-American cuisine, not Chinese* Cuisine. The sugary glop is what sells to Americans, or at least did for a long time.

*I don’t want to get into a debate as to what counts as Chinese-ness. To keep things simple I’ll make the distinction while also noting that Chinese-American Cuisine is a valid Chinese Cuisine too.

@sachertorte I probably wouldn’t use the specific word “elevate,” but as far as the idea, I’d say yes. That’s because I’d compare Applebee’s to McDonald’s not just on the hamburger itself, but everything (atmosphere, decor, pricing, menu options, etc). Just as I do with one particular Chinese restaurant in my area. It’s a sit-down place, with tablecloths and servers. 95% of the other places have tables, but are primarily take out. The other 5% (or less) are buffets.

So, in my area, there’s one, or at least very few, “elevated” Chinese places (akin to Applebee’s in this discussion), and the vast majority are McDonald’s.

I have a friend who is a Chinese American, whose mother was born is China. She says her mother adores a tacky Chinese American buffet place that is all overly sweet glop, and as a result, she eats there often when she visits her mom.

So, valid cuisine, i guess.

Also, i agree with Miller that the name is slightly uncomfortable because it feels slightly like yellowface, but it’s not an intrinsically terrible name, and if the place was convenient and had food i liked, I’d probably get their food from time to time.

I can see that somebody might reduce the distinction to “figured and non-figured” for purposes of maintenance, etc. That makes sense from a technical standpoint.

But in terms of marketing, public presentation, etc. it makes much more sense to say something like, “We have Oriental rugs, Moroccan rugs, and Navaho rugs.” That way you preserve the historical and cultural differences between the various types. To smush all those together into a single category does a grave disservice to the separate cultures that produced the rugs.

Uh-oh! If they are “updating” or “making their own versions” of any ethnic dishes, prepare for backlash!

No, they’ll be just fine.