Christian Beliefs-out of fear, or out of love? Or Guin's theological crisis..

Great Debates
21

Dear, you know the love of God in your heart. Remember that you can call on Him for the strength to do what’s right – and that you know what’s right from reading what He says.

Nothing I can say or do will be of any help without that, and with it you don’t really need me, but you know I’ll be glad to be there at your side, speaking the Truth in the name of our mutual Lord.

Go fearlessly and smite the heathen – especially the variety that wear the clothes of Christians to hide their sinful selves. God is with you.

22

People believe in god because they need to believe in something indestructable in themself. If anything it is fear of ceasing to exist, not fear of god, that causes people to believe in god. Once you believe in god, it is ridiculous to say that you only follow him out of selfishness! Is becoming a better person selfish? Is believing that you are a deserving person selfish? Is having hope and trying to give hope to other people selfish? I think you have a very poor definition of selfish when it comes to this issue. Doing what you believe is right, even if it takes a little extra urging, can hardly be described as selfish, at least by my definition.

23

I’ve often wondered about the use of “fire and brimstone” sermons and theology. The analogy that I use is: Imagine saying to someone, “If you don’t love me, you’ll be punished for it.” It’s hard to imagine that working on anyone. For me, the joy that comes from knowing God is all that is needed to make me want to do His will and serve His purposes.

But, having said that, I attended a Pentacostal gathering that was very scary (my kids had to leave, it was too intense) and afterwards, there were many people that answered the alter call. As a Methodist, I haven’t seen too many situations like that in our services. It makes me wonder, are there some people that can only be reached through fear? And if so, what is our church doing to reach them?

I prefer to spread the God is love message but I’m not sure that this is a one-size-fits-all situation.

Peace be with you.

24

I was raised up in a Pentacostal church too, but there wasn’t a lot of Hell talk that I can remember. But we did get an earful about the Devil.

But there was a lot of scariness involved in the services. People throwing fits and speaking in tongues. The pastor walking off the pulpit to “prophesize” to people who dared to catch his eye. People falling out with the Holy Ghost. It was amusing in the same way that it might be amusing to watch crazy people. But it was scary too because I wasn’t sure if I had to act like that to be considered a Christian.

In a Pentacostal church, the altar calls are very compelling. The music is playing, the congregation is singing, the pastor and his team are standing out in front with out-stretched arms, welcoming the backslidden and those who want to “walk with the Lord”. If you are brave enough to come on down, the whole congregation cheers you on, reaching out to pat you on the back and everything. You feel like the whole world loves you. I’ve been in services where the altar call has lasted for an eternity while the congregation waits fruitfully or successfully for that last reluctant soul. As a kid, I used to dread those moments because it would seem like every eye would be on me.

But strangely, I’ve come to find that I miss Pentacostal services. Except for maybe the sermons, they are rarely boring and if you’ve never seen fervor, you can find it there. Plus, you can’t beat the music.

25

I was called a blasphemer because I had a picture of the Blessed Mother in my signature at this place, and I quoted the Hail Mary.

sigh

26

Guin, I’m getting pretty fed up with religious people myself, yet I profess to be one. I’ve always been a nonconformist no matter what circle I travel in. Since rediscovering Catholicism in college, I’ve felt more at peace with myself and more sure of what I believe and what motivates me. Still, those wacky religious folks (Catholic and non-Catholic alike) continue to piss me off. I bet your confusion and my frustration are pretty similar.

The conclusion I’m coming to of late (and, since I tend to be of the academic mindset, I’m always open to changing my mind) is that people tend to be too legalistic about religion. In the short term, that’s ok, because we need clear standards and rules when it comes to harm being done to our souls and the world around us. Clear rules are generally OK when we need to articulate what common sense should be telling us. (As a law student, I’m coming to appreciate this fact.)

Still, the problem with many religious folk is that they get hung up on the legalisms. The resultant problem is that there’s an inevitable overfocusing on one aspect of the faith to the exclusion of all others, which usually ends up alienating everybody else. For many people, faith becomes a “code of conduct,” rather than a “way of life.” (They’re markedly similar: certainly people living their faith follow the clear rules, but it isn’t an artificial method that requires looking up a Bible passage for every decision. Or think of it this way: most people don’t go around murdering people because it’s the right thing to do, not because “Thou shalt not kill” is stamped in the Bible.)

Back to my original point: it’s comfortable to get caught up in legalisms, but the proverbial forest is lost for the trees. Suddenly this person is “more Christian” than that person simply because he’s doing something the other guy isn’t.

Example: There’s a recent episode of Survivor where two Christians teamed up to lie and cheat the other players, then asked for their forgiveness and God’s. (I believe this is a pit rant at present.) Here, these two…well, since I don’t feel like being charitable…IDIOT women overfocused on their perception of God’s love and forgiveness to the exclusion of the basic idea that people should be treated with courtesy, or even that lying is wrong (duh).

Oh, and since people like that tend to be in the spotlight, it ruins the perception of Christianity for the rest of us. One person’s idiocy is imputed to the rest of the church.

I think your need to point out hypocricy is well-founded, and more power to you for following up on it. It’s sad that we have to minister to members of our own faith, but such is the human condition. In the meantime, keep doing your best to keep your own nose clean, since our ultimate responsibility is to our own souls (and my general impression of you is that you’re doing that just fine).

27

They have chosen judgment, Guin.

Be honest, you can’t stand before judgment and be found to be without flaw, unblemished by sin. And those who look for fault can easily find it. And as they judge, so shall they be judged. Not the choice I make. Don’t be fooled by their self righteousness. The perfect soul needs no Savior, and shall have none, because he will have none.

Let it pass over you. You and I are filled with flaws, and need the love of Christ to be made whole. But we have it, so we are raised up higher than ever we could reach, or even dream. Let those who believe their lives and their beliefs make them better than you be content with their self image. It is all they have.

Perhaps the Lord can save them from this wretched judgment they demand. I believe He can. I know I cannot.

Tris

28

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” Psalm 111. A friend of mine used to complete the quote by saying, “and the love of God is its perfecting.” God bless, Guin.

29

Guin, I used to go into Christian chat rooms to point out hypocrisy, too.

I don’t do that anymore. Not because I stopped believing in those hypocrisies, but I realized that not all Christians are the right-wing judgemental wackos I had previously thought. Despite their beliefs on some things that I find rather irrational, many of them are genuinely nice people who don’t have hatred toward anyone or any group. My attitudes on religion and the religious have matured greatly in the past few years.

These days I’m very much a Christian. I went out and bought a Bible and everything. However, I go to a Unitarian church because I feel that other religious practices and beliefs are not any less valid than mine. They’re all roads leading to the same great place.

I do not worship out of some sense of obligation. I did that for years as a Catholic and it wore thin when I realized the people telling me I needed to worship or go to hell weren’t people to look up to and were actually rather corrupt (old fashioned financial corruption, thankfully). I now worship out of a sense of love and thankfulness and to strengthen my own inner peace. It’s very satisfying.

30

Guin, I always find it interesting how some “Christian” like to pound on one doctrine yet ignore the others. For instance what Titus says about gossip, or keeping you tounge and heart chaste. (Free of haterd). Or the importance of forgiveness, not being judgmental…

I could be here all night. :slight_smile:

31

Um, Poly, a word please?

Just WHAT do you mean by ‘smite the heathen’?

Does your faith require you to persecute us who decline to join your faith?

I hope the ‘heathens’ to which you refer are allegorical, and are not real, live humans.

y’all wish to smite each other, based on Biblical Interpretation - cool - you signed onto the battle, you take the casualties.

Please recognize us heathens as non-combatants, 'K?

32

**Guin[b/] - I understand your anguish, I have some similar experience of it.

What I have come to understand is that humans are essentially corruptible. If you read the New Testament, there is only one meaning of God, and that is love. “Love thy neighbour, love thy god.”

But humans predispose to evil, bullying and control. This has an irreparably damaging impact on the doctrines of pretty much all religions, and the subdivisions within those religious. It takes exceptional courage, spiritual intelligence and emancipation to transcend the (often false) doctrines forced upon us in our formative years and follow truth alone.

I also understand your urge to try and “unbrainwash” the people in these messageboards. But sad as the case may be, that may never be possible. Only you can decide if it is worth “banging your head against a brick wall” in the hope of just opening the eyes of one person. It may be worth it. It may at least give one wavering person, one miserably repressed person, the chance to see a better truth.

On the other hand, it may increase the fear and paranoia of the majority that their belief-control-system is being undermined, and they may seek to increase the threats of hell and sin and guilt that they repress believers with.

I wrote in another thread that I believe doctrine that elevates the spiritual authority and infallibility of one human being over another derives from evil.

This is not to say that the “blind followers” of repressive and misguided religious regimes will not find salvation. Some people need a stronger, stricter framework in their lives, they feel more secure with it. It is possible to be a moral, good, kind and loving person even if your religious leaders are themselves corrupt, controlling and misguided.

Yes - many relgious beliefs derive from of fear rather than love, out of selfishness, rather than altruism. But if the fear of the fiery pit (rather than the love of goodness) stops one person from abuse and murder, perhaps there is some benefit to it.

33

::: makes note, “Heathens have declared neutrality” :::

It was a metaphor, HH, as I think you realize – read the clause following the one you quoted. Although if we negotiate a Mutual Defense and Non-Aggression Pact with the Neopagans, would you Heathens consider joining and making it a multipartite pact? :wink:

The command to Christians is very strong and very specific: Love God with all that is in you, and love every one of your fellow human beings as yourself.

One should, as Paul says, not conform oneself to “the world” (meaning the selfish motives of sinful humanity) but be transformed by the work of the Holy Spirit on your own spirit, your soul, your mind, and your will. The term metanoia is sometimes used for this transformation, following Paul’s verb use.

The problem with many people who call themselves Christians is that they fail to enter into this transformation, accepting God as One who loves them and everyone unconditionally and desiring to reshape their lives into what He has in store for them, but rather are anxious about “their salvation,” buying into the Great Judge enforcing the criminal Law metaphor which is perhaps the last thing God had in mind in trying to teach morality to humans. And as a result, keeping this selfish nature, they bring to their belief their own prejudices against others and find ways to enshrine those prejudices by selective quotation of Scripture.

34

I was reading Jon Shelby Spong’s Saving Christianity from Fundamentalism, and one thing he mentioned was that, if you have a particular prejudice or whatever, it’s really not that hard to find a verse or passage in the Bible to justify it. People have been doing it for centuries.

The problem is, like I said-they end up worshipping the Bible itself-not the God behind it.

35

Another thing I thought of-isn’t, fearing God, in a way, disrespectful? Think about it-if you love God, you trust God and have faith in Him. So, fear would mean that you doubt him?

If you trust in God, you HAVE nothing to fear.

36

Here’s John Paul II’s thoughts on the subject. The full text can be found ]here.

37

Interesting topic–I was thinking about the same thing today.

I was listening to This American Life, where they had a story about the original Hell House, the fundie answer to the traditional haunted house, which is staged every year in a Broadway show-calibre production in a Dallas suburb. I had heard about these things before–I even remember them being parodied on King of the Hill–but I had no idea what they were really like.

One room re-enacted the Columbine shootings, complete with the whole Cassie Bernall/“She Said Yes” bit. (To their credit, the people making the film saw this only six months after the incident, and I don’t think this legend had been de-bunked yet.) In the end, Jesus leads her (and only her) away to heaven while the shooters are dragged off to hell.

Another room depicted a girl who had an abortion and is now hemmorhaging to death. Another showed a teenager who adopted a “homosexual lifestyle” (yes, they used those words) and was dying of AIDS. Another re-enacted a rave, at which a girl is slipped a drug and gang-raped, only to kill herself later out of shame. Domestic violence, drugs, you name it, and they had the fundie porn version of it re-enacted in stunning detail. At the end, of course, participants are told that this is the fate that awaits them if they don’t go in that room and pray with the counselors they have available.

I haven’t been so disgusted by anything in quite a while. I’ve often said that the worst thing we do for teenagers is to exaggerate the dangers of risky behavior; they’re not stupid, and when the reality they know fails to match the visions we create, they ignore the real dangers.

But I digress. With bilge out there like this, offering nothing but fear-mongering to people in their most emotionally vulnerable years, it’s no wonder people believe out of fear. If I didn’t have the wisdom to see past the fear-mongering (or the skepticism to not buy any of it anyway), I’d be scared out of my wits.

(You can hear the story later this week at thislife.org. It really is fascinatingly disgusting.)

Dr. J

38

Guin:
I Googled “Bokononism” and got about 400 returns. As far as I could tell from skimming the links, it looks like something invented in Kurt Vonnegut Jr.'s novels… ?
I didn’t get any further.

39

(Quasi-hijack)
My Science professor ( I went to a Christian college) told us that the Beatitudes can be interpreted as a step-by-step breakdown of the conversion process. So, it starts out with “poverty of spirit”, which is, he said, our spiritual poverty in comparison with God’s richness. The next step as per the Beatitudes is, “blessed are they that mourn”, which is the logical next step after realising one’s sinfulness. Anyway, I tend to think of fearing God as part of the first step of realising my poverty- and I usually associate “fear” with awe, but I don’t think that’s everything. I can feel legitimate fear at being in the presence of God, knowing that I’ve failed Him and deserve judgement, and yet receive grace instead.
I’m sorry if this is very fuzzy. I’m tired.

40

It just…ugh. I was over at our friend JanL’s site. These people claim to be Christian, but they hang out there-where there is now a direct link to the message board at STORMFRONT!

You know, the Neo-Nazi site?

I’m sitting here, so nauseous. Trying to get these things out of my mind. I was feeling good, too. Listened to some Simon and Garfunkel, thought about the GOOD Christians I know-some of you here, Dr. Brett, Dr. Jourin, my family, etc.

And now…I’m just stunned.

Why is there so much HATE in the world? Why can’t we all just get along? Why do we have to kill each other?