Christian Coalition?

John McCain wasn’t defeated by the Christian COlaition, though that’s what he must WANT to believe. He lost because he had absolutely ZERO support among Republicans. He pandered exclusively to the media and to liberal Democrats. In states where Democrats were allowed to vote in the G.O.P. primaries, McCain did well. In states where only Republicans could vote, he got his rear end kicked.

Moral (for anyone seeking a party’s nomination): if you want to get your party’s nomination, it helps immensely if you appeal to members of that party!

I happen to be a conservative… a fairly extreme one, actually, who has all kinds of problems with the Christian Coalition (for starters, I’m Catholic, and to many fundamentalist that makes me a non-Christian!). It so happens that I agree with most of their individual stands- but the truth is, the Christian right is not all that powerful. Their importance has been grossly exaggerated by:

  1. THEMSELVES! Heck you ever know a political action group that claimed its numbers were small and its influence limited?

  2. The liberals! HEy, every group needs a bogeyman to rally its troops against! FOr the NRA, it’s the “jackbooted thugs” at ATF. For liberals, it’s Jerry Falwell and Pat RObertson.

Good points, and I agree - they may have just as much or little influence as any other PAC, but they above all others I despise most. :slight_smile:

And yes, astorian, they are their biggest cheerleaders - it serves their purpose. They probably have less influence than they say they do, but they still probably have more than any other similar type organization.

Esprix


Evidently, I rock.
Ask the Gay Guy!

David responded politely to Bomm-boom’s hatred:

I have trouble being as patient.

Boomer has once again engaged in a drive-by posting, manufacturing insult where there is none, and masking his own despite of non-theists with accusations of “anti-theism” (which sure isn’t in my dictionary, Boomer’s "definition notwithstanding). The amount of hatred he obviously holds cannot be healthy. :frowning:

Unfortunately, the same holds true with many very vocal members of the Christian community. The loudest voices belong to those with an agenda to forward. This is not a problem until and unless that agenda is to infringe on the rights of others, to subjuate the minority, or to punish disagreement.

And I believe that the agenda of the CC meets those requirements at times.

-andros-

not meaning to nitpick, astorian, but I’d take issue with the following:

McCain had fairly substantial support from Republicans, just not from the Republican party. Now, obviously that means that he had little support from individual Republicans, as most of the voters follow the lead of the party mucky-mucks.

Also, while I agree he did very well with the media, I don’t know that he did all that well with liberal Democrats. But then, there aren’t very many liberal Dems any more, conservative rhetoric notwithstanding. IMO, McCain pandered to conservative Democrats and moderates who didn’t trust Gore.

-andros-

John Corrado said:

Yes and no. The CC painted McCain as some sort of virtual liberal. I have some very conservative religious friends who were attacking McCain in a discussion with a few of us. We pointed out that he is at least as conservative as W, as shown by his voting records, but they would have none of it. The CC said W was the man, so W was the man, and McCain is some liberal hippie freak.

But that’s just it. They are supposedly a non-profit religious organization. Comparing them to a labor union is a poor comparison – unless you are willing to agree they were always lying about their motives (as the IRS and courts finally decided). As a supposedly nonpartisan religious organization, they have OVERinfluenced politics.

DavidB said:

As did Rush Limbaugh; as did George Will. I’m trying to understand your portrayal of your friends; you make it sound as if they had CC microtransmitters in their brain saying “Vote this way for Christ! All else are heretics!” I wouldn’t doubt that some CC members actually feel that way about their positions, but you make it sound like the CC had brainwashed your friends.

I lay the blame squarely on McCain. He had some very strong conservative credentials; he had some very strong liberal credentials; and he had some issues where he had obviously made missteps (statements upon abortion, for example). McCain decided to emphasize his liberal credentials, and therefore allowed Bush to state that McCain was too liberal and Bush was the true conservative leader. Whatever McCain’s conservative credentials- and he had plenty of them- his emphasis of his liberal and moderate credentials turned off a lot of potential supporters because he seemed to be selling out to the left.

If McCain had emphasized his conservative credentials instead, perhaps he would have gotten the CC’s support and been the nominee. But I think McCain’s complaints are less “I played the game, but the CC broke the rules” than “I tried to break the rules, but the CC won anyways.”

I am certainly willing to agree that they were lying about their motives. They are a PAC, and had they played by the ‘non-partisan’ rules, they’d certainly be a much smaller influence in politics today. But they played by the PAC rules, and they have PAC strength now (with influence equitable to size).

Jeez, how did I end up the one in this debate taking up their defense?


JMCJ

“Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame

Can if I want to! [stamping my little feet}

Seriously, I’m not saying the CC was the sole and deciding factor, but that McCain’s ultimate refusal to pander to them was what in the end did in his campaign.

Otto:

On the day you discover how deceived you’ve been and how doomed you are, forever, you’ll remember me telling you this and wish you could have made other choices.
::

Gosh, Boomer, I guess you must have missed my earlier message where I asked you to back up your claim. Specifically, I said: "Please show any ‘anti-theistic vitriol’ posted in this thread before you posted your claim. Or admit you were wrong.’

So, where is it?

John Corrado said:

Well, I wouldn’t doubt it. Let’s just say if the Religious Right says it, they believe it. So when the CC said Bush was more conservative on abortion, they believed it. When they said he was better for religious people, they believed it. When my other friend and I pointed out that McCain was at least as conservative on those issues, they shook their heads no. They didn’t know the facts – just what they’d been told. Needless to say, while we’re friends, I don’t rely on them for vital information. :wink:

I’m not sure he had a real choice. The Religious Right (and the GOP officials) had already picked Bush as “the man.” McCain wasn’t going to win the conservatives. He had to take a different angle, I think.

I don’t think so – they picked Bush very early on – before McCain started emphasizing much of anything, IMO. Plus, I don’t think he would bow down to them, which Bush seems more than willing to do.

That’s fine, then. But that was what I meant when I said they had too much influence – they were supposed to be non-partisan, and continually claimed to be (with a wink and a nod). It was total bullshit, mind you.

But even otherwise, the Religious Right folks make up a minority of the GOP, but I think the problem is that they go out and VOTE the way they are told to. As such, they are the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

No matter what a man believes in, he’s always FAR too ready to believe that, when people vote his way, they’re doing so for the noblest and most intelligent of reasons… and that, when the people DON’T vote his way, they’re idiots who don’t know what they’re doing, sheep who’ve been misled by some third party, or just plain malevolent.

The liberals on this board clearly believe that Christian conservatives are sheep, easily duped into voting for whoever the Svengalis of the Christian Coalition endorse. This is, in a word, nonsense.

Interest anecdote: after dropping out of the PResidential race, Gary Bauer briefly endorsed John McCain. ALmost immediately afterward, McCain began badmouthing prominent Christian conservatives. Bauer tried to tell McCain and his campaign leaders “You fools, you’re driving away voters you’ll need in November.” Warren Rudman and other McCain advisors scoffed at Bauer, “Come on, those people have nowhere else to go in November. They’ll beef and moan now, but in November they’ll vote for us. What else can they do, vote for Gore?” ANd Bauer replied, “YEs, you idiots, that’s EXACTLY what most of them will do!”

You see, Gary Bauer understands something about “the Christian Right” that their detractors don’t (in fairness, even many conservatives don’t grasp this): white, working-class Southerners are not wealthy people. They may hate abortion, they may hate pornography, they may oppose gun control, they may support school prayer, they may be hawkish on foreign policy… but “the Church Lady” is living on Social Security, and is terrified of cuts in her benefits. “Bubba” (the guy with the El Camino and the NRA bumber sticker) works in a factory, and is worried about his job being shipped overseas.

Get the idea? These people will vote Republican if the social issues are first and foremost in their minds in November. But, if the Republican candidate backpedals on the social issues, then the Christian conservative can and WILL vote for the Democrats (who always appealed to him more on the economic issues anyway).

Reality time: Christian conservatives are not a monolith, and cannot be delivered to ANY candidate on a silver platter.

Now, it’s certainly odd how John McCain and George W. Bush have come to be perceived. A year ago, I’d have rated both as moderate conservatives. Both had solidly conservative records, but neither was beholden to the far right. Apart from campaign finance reform, they agreed on almost every major issue. So, how did McCain come to be a darling of the far left??? And how did Bush come to be seen as the voice of the far right???

I think what happened is this: a year ago, it seemed a foregone conclusion that George W. Bush was going to win the nomination handily. That had little to do with his personal qualities, and MUCH to do with the perception that he was an ideal candidate. He had a famous name, a moderate image, a conservative record, and great personal charm. He SEEMED like a very electable candidate, and Republicans of ALL stripes were dying for someone who looked like a WINNER! Even though George W. was not EVERYTHING a fundamentalist CHristian would want in a candidate, he was good enough… so the leaders of the Christian Right began to endorse him.

McCain threw a wrench in the works, of course. Though he’s never been a leftist, he chose to campaign like one. FOr that reason, even though the Far Right had NEVER loved the Bush family in the past (they always eyed George Sr. with suspicion), they embraced him when he seemed to be under attack from the left.

In short, the CHristian right probably wouldn’t have embraced McCain, but they didn’t have to be his mortal enemies. McCain MADE them his mortal enemies, all by himself. Sad thing is, McCain was surrounded by so many fawning, pandering reporters, he came to believe those reporters represented America in general. The press LOVED hearing McCain trash CHristians, so he foolishly assumed his words were going over well with the mass audience.

Wrong! And it cost him dearly.

Astorian said:

I don’t know if you were referring to me, but I’ll respond just in case. Certainly, not all Christian conservatives are this way. But some (perhaps many) are. I mentioned my friends. Also, I just finished a book, Close Encounters with the Religious Right, by Rob Boston. He describes a number of cases where he was at RR conferences and people just took whatever they were given as gospel. One particular incident talks about a conference handing out cards with company names on them who gave money to Planned Parenthood (and maybe other organizations), and the attendees were told they shouldn’t shop there any more. One man said to Boston that he was upset he wouldn’t be able to shop at a certain store because he liked it, but the card said they gave money to P.P. Boston replied that Planned Parenthood doesn’t just do abortions, but does all sorts of helpful things (including women’s health care, for example). The man shook his head and said that if the name was on the card, obviously they had done something wrong and he couldn’t shop there again.

“Baaaaaa.”

The Christian Coalition is neither christian nor a coalition.


“I can never give a ‘yes’ of a ‘no.’ I don’t believe everything in life can be settled by a monosyllable” *Betty Smith

Ack! I’m sorry…I had jumped on here and posted the above…too late to take it back. I was in a rush to get in what I meant in one sentence, and didn’t word it as succinctly as I should have. Then I posted in haste.

hangs head in shame

I’ll just take my foot out of my mouth and move along my merry way…if I remember my point, I’ll come back. Sorry to intrude.

:o


“I can never give a ‘yes’ of a ‘no.’ I don’t believe everything in life can be settled by a monosyllable” *Betty Smith

I don’t see the problem, Ophelia. That pretty much sums it up in a nice, easy sound-bite.

By the way, I hope your last name isn’t Rass. :smiley:


Yer pal,
Satan

http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif

I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two weeks, two days, 12 hours, 48 minutes and 54 seconds.
661 cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.67.
Life saved: 2 days, 7 hours, 5 minutes.

I have to agree…Many conservative/fundamentalist Christians are fed information and take it all as truth. There is no margin for thought in this process. What amazes me is that in many instances this missinformation is shouted right from the pulpit! Often by well meaning men who have also been duped or at least lead to believe that what they are sharing with their congregations is “gospel”. Naturally the congregation would not dare to question the validity of anything they hear from their beloved pastor on Sunday. Guess that’s why I have a hard time finding a church where I fit in, I question just about everything.

Needs2know

It’s nice to know not all Christians are this self-righteous.

Esprix


Evidently, I rock.
Ask the Gay Guy!

NiceGuyJack wrote:

You could always join us Libertarians.

Join us … join us … join us …

But as you said here:

If the shoe fits…