If there are any who opine me as hating or disliking the god of deuteronomy have nissed the point. I do not allow piss ants to make me angry, not do i hate charging rhinocerouses that are hell bent on crushing me under foot. When I am exposed the kind of murdering entity as described there in the ‘good book’ I only take notes and prepare for the moment that entity is unfortuate enough to engage my space within arms length. Hatred is something people l do until they see the futility and uselessness and self defeating that inner boiling can achieve. The man I saw who had hios family murdered n the death camps in Eurpope showed a strength one does not see even in a younger Arnie (Governor) Scwarzenagger. He made it abundantly clear that to hate thos that murdered his family in th emost disguicting and degrading manner would murder hom to if he allowed that hatred to continue. I do not know what processes he went through to douse the fires that were consuming him, but I make a guess that if the murderers of his family were aprehended, tried and convicted and he was asked to pick the pubnishment, or sentence, form a list that contained loving and pure giving forgiveness all the way to hanging by the next until dead, he would opt for the latter without an inorfdinate amount of thought. Does anyone know where I can obtain a working woodmchipper.? One just never knows when ol yahweh is going to come sailing over the horizon. I wouldn’t want that space bug to think I hadn’t been thinkng of his return.
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My dear too.
I don’t spend much or probably even any time thinking about heaven. This thread was just a fun little exercise until, oh darn I can’t say what I want to say here. You fill in the blanks. My days are about this world, I’m not worried about the next and don’t have any real expectations about who’s going to be there. I have a wonderful life here and if the next is this good, I’m cool. 
I agree. I am still trying to de-program a life of beliefs that were not IMHO what God intended at all.
Okay, I’m here to disagree now. You are mistaking my “mad mother’s tone” for haughty and arrogant. The last couple of months here at SDMB I have said I was wrong and admitted defeat on, well almost everything. Admitting I was a naive idiot isn’t something you can do and still maintain haughty or arrogant, whoops, don’t forget uppity and snobbish. I have never been wrong about so many things in my life as lately and freely admitted it. I have never been so humbled. But you are right, I am strong, so take it back or you have to go read all my old posts where I was on a continuous diet of crow.
I don’t care what heaven is like. I’m sure it won’t be a Christian heaven or any other religion. I don’t think God joined any of our church’s, although I could be wrong. I think people are going to be very surprised when they get there and realize that God wasn’t really involved in this life. That pretty much all the bad and all the good were of our own making. Now calm down. Ranting about a God you don’t believe exists isn’t good for you. Beer, try beer, that’s better.
IWLN - I have done the evil syrup to a near excess, and like the song goes, “the whiskey ain’t workin’ anymore”, but I miss it not. I am going to copy your note and plcae it on my fridge with a cute little magnet as a reminder that there are loving and kind people in the world that do not have to demonstrate their ‘holiness’ to others in order to enjoy their elevated sense of serenity. Matthew Chpter 6:1 reminds us to be warned (in some versions) of those who parade their piety before them for all to see and admire. Could this be interpreted, pehaps, as including a neo-modern update on the definitiopn of’ ‘white collar crime’?
I just hate it when I’m cynical like that!
Better use The Spear of Destiny, instead. It worked once before. 
Or you could melt down the metal of the spear, and cast it into a replacement woodchipper blade…creating the most unholy yard appliance ever conceived of by the mind of man.
Well, the only unholy yard appliance ever conceived of by man, I suppose.
Ranchoth
(Not counting the Garden Weasel of Shiva, of course.)
Thank you. So we can take the woodchipper off of your Christmas list now? Tell you what. I have access to one and if you don’t find out that “piety” knoweth not, then I’ll loan it to you. I’m not sure piety parading will ever be a crime, but it is a sin.
Mhernan, paragraphs are your friends. Use them, please.
Hey, I just got him calmed down. Don’t get him all riled up about punctuation!!!
This experience happened to me (and to many, many other people) and although it was nothing like what I had thought heaven would be, it has changed my expectation forever. I will describe it as if it were happening to you.
You are standing alone outside. Very suddenly an overwhelming sense of well-being floods over you. You look to the sky and somehow the movement of the clouds against the sun confirm for you that you are at the very center of yourself.
The sensation of joy increases. Your mind lingers briefly on earthly concerns – your marriage, your family, your home – and although they seem sweetly dear to you, they also seem basically of no lasting consequence.
Colors about you begin to intensify and shimmer. Everything seems to be happening in a rose gold light.
You feel the edges of your own physical body first expand to embrace everything and then disappear so that you are everything all at once. You become the point at which the infinitely large and the infinitely small are the same. And that point is a perfect state of bliss. You want for nothing. You desire nothing.
You become aware of an eye in the sky and you are that eye. It is open. You know that if the eye closes, “you” will disappear forever and that that will be a fine thing.
You instinctively know that this timelessness is in keeping with all that is sacred. You are One with all of it.
Trying to describe the experience is generally frustrating. I can’t convey the depth of feeling or the physical aspects of it. When I had this experience, I didn’t realize that others had also experienced the same.
I don’t think that I am “special” because it happened to me. I think it can happen to anyone at any time.
If paradise is better than that, I cannot fathom it.
I dunno, any leaf-blower engaged before 6 a.m. on a Sunday morning is enough to make me wish for a sudden manifestation of the Wrath of God.
I like that. The wood chiper is abit bulky and were i to bring it to a meeting with the intended subject he might become a bit suscpicious as to “why is Mike bringing that wood chipper with him toour meeting”.
A spear, on the other hand could be passed off as “oh, this thing, you mean? It’s just a stick I found in the street”
Oh the horror of it all.
To be publicly humiliated in front of all my friends and family.
However, besides enjoying a god-like ability to manifest a prefect sense of modesty, I also posses the rather charmng ability to sift through esoteric rhetoric and determine when some nice people are doing something nice for me.
Yesterday was my first exposure to this form of communication. ha discoverd that I could print, copy and paste in Word with all the bells and whistles attached. Strangely enough, so raptt was I in the intensity of the events unfolding in his thread, isubconmsciously did not want to leac=ve whee I was, go all the way to Wors, write the [roperly pair of graphs, copy, retuen all the way back to the thread , point and paste.
Funny, that’s a book I find rather comforting and one of the one’s I’m happiest is in the Bible. Maybe we should start another thread discussing the pros and cons of it. You see, there was a point in my life when I thought I had lost everything. I was moving back home, tail between my legs, to start again from scratch. I agreed with that line from Godspell, “You’d be that Job [di-di-di-dee-di-dee-di-dee]/ Had nothing on you!”
One thing about that book. At the end, Job gets back everything he lost, 10 times over. In a way, so did I. The same thing happens today. Tragedy strikes good people out of the blue and their so-called friends say things like, “You mustn’t have prayed hard enough” or “You must have done something to deserve it.” I take the point of Job as we cannot know the answers and it’s all right.
CJ
Siege
I’ve always wondered if Job was supposed to be a true story and God really was playing an unhealthy game of chess or was it just a parable, not true; but supposed to teach us something. Of course I want to believe the second option, just because the first seems wrong somehow, morally. Which obviously is not my judgment call, but really makes me uncomfortable.
If you can get around the tragedy, there are some really compelling verses during Job and his buddies talking to God and what was said back. Descriptions of the makeup of the world, set in very hauntingly beautiful tones. Job did get everything back, but as for his wife and kids, he had to replace them; so it’s not like it was a temporary loss. I know what Vanilla means though. I find it disturbing.
IWLN reference Siege and the Book of Job and i reference IWLN
The discussion continues. Siege’s mention of the Book of Job is interesting as it brings to the fore front the practical use of scripture. From yesterday until today many have mentioned scripture and it utility, to use a shorthand. While we can all discuss the merits of the innumerable manner in which to interpret and use scripture anyone reading scripture assumes some reality be it mythical, metaphorical or literal for example. I must confess I have a very difficult time reading the bible from any perspective other than as literally as I am able.
I am convinced, as most others must be also, that the bible is an edited work that has been transformed into it current state. This being the case and from sources that express similar, if not truly parallel versions of events, the first few books do appear to me as historical.
While my angle of bible reading has varied over the years. I am at a point where allow myself the freedom to read as I see, For instance, when Yahweh, says in Genesis, “let us make man in our image” he is making a verbal, literal statement. Some force the translation that the plural form of “us” should be interpreted as the “trinity”. However, when comparing Genesis with Sumerian texts written in clay circa 4000BC it becomes easy for me to see that indeed the plot thickens.
“Us”, means what it says, “us”, or the Nefilim in the ”time of the Nefilim”. Genesis tells ME, shah, that the gods of genesis were from another planet, highly developed, technologically and biologically. By DNA manipulation humans wee created by visitors.
I wont waste your time giving my slant any further on this as some, remembering what might be interpreted as an outburst against a dogmatic fool, so I observed, can understand my loathing for that spaceman that I considered nothing particularly elevated in a spiritual and moral degree of advancement.
Leaping forward to the wedding ceremony in John in the New Testament, we are told that Mary the mother f Jesus and Jesus himself were at a rather well attended wedding. What interesting here is that Mary tells Jesus that the party is running out of wine, and she directs a reluctant Jesus top do something about it and she then commands the servants to do what Jesus tells them to do.
What is some literal truth here?
Well. The groom at Jewish weddings was historical responsible for providing the wine.
What are the implications of Jesus’ mother commanding the servants to do what Jesus says? She spoke very authoritatively, so I read.
Jesus is referred to as “Rabbi” on a few occasion throughout the New Testament and some historical scholars have mentioned that Rabbis of that time were expected to be married an d it would have been expected that they be married and it was common for Jewish men to be married in their early teens. It sure appears to me that Jesus’ mother was an official, the groom’s mother, at a wedding.
When Jesus commanded the servant to fill some jugs with water in another room well, I personally do not need Jesus as an alchemist in order to give him stature, nor even a title and recognition of divinity. At this point, it bothers me not that Jesus was practiced in the arts of slight of hand.
Some will respond only to a message of love and mercy, others to the recognition of sin and its curse, still for others the expectation of judgment is the persuasive factor. I agree with your point to this extent: God is truly love, first and foremost, and shows no favoritism in that love. He calls all to repentance, though history clearly shows not all will respond.
I take issue with your entire post in one essential point: it matters not what you or I want God to be. It matters what He declares Himself to be.
At no point have I stated otherwise. Some prepare the soil, some plant, some reap. 2 Tim 4:2-3 charges us to preach the Word, in season and out, to correct, rebuke and encourage. Such was my intent with Guinastasia. She is in some internal angst because of doubts, which can only be reconciled by addressing them. As she brought the point up, I am addressing it.
Again, Rom 10:14-15 answers this clearly: they cannot call on one in whom they do not believe, cannot believe in one of whom they have not heard, cannot hear without someone preaching. God works through us. The Great Commission, remember.
I’m puzzled. Witnessing to others means conveying only God’s love? Please provide some support for this position. You’ll recall that the vast majority of Jews hearing the message in Jesus’ lifetime rejected Him as Messiah; how does this square with your last two sentences? Did those people “know” Him in sufficient measure when they rejected Him?
This subject is far too complex to tackle in this thread. It largely reminds me of the election 2000 fiasco: two sides, both convinced they’re right, both having the same facts, both interpreting them differently. I am offended by the comment that ‘science doesn’t lie’, as it is clear that dogmatists have certainly done so in the name of science and your conclusion that those who interpret the significance of scientific facts differently are more than in error, they’re actually lying is even worse.
Again, you are being offensive in your characterizations here. Guinastasia has been an active poster for years. This is not the first interaction she and I have had, nor is this the one and only time she has taken issue with some aspect of Christian faith. As she is quick to note, she is a Catholic, born and raised I believe, though possibly lapsed might be closer to her position at this time. Guinastasia, please correct me if I’ve inadverdently erred. I don’t fault her for having questions; I fault faith weakened by emotional reaction rather than strengthened by reason.
Sheesh. Never, at any time, in any way, have I ever spouted such nonsense as God wanting robotic parrots.
The teachings do reflect that; what is missing is the context of the teachings. The arrogance and cultural bigotry of some today who claim to lay today’s societal status and norms against a period and culture so far removed that context becomes the crucial element in understanding events of thousands of years past. All too often, the easy way is taken, presumption trumps historical relevance and analysis, and out comes some cheap shot that God is ‘angry, vicious, evil’.
I wasn’t speaking to a non-believer, I was speaking from the source to a believer. Or would you rather I had just assured her to “trust me”? This way not only Guinastasia but others reading this thread can address directly the Scriptural quotes and respond effectively. It’s certainly preferable to just ‘off the cuff’ approximations, isn’t it?
Your sarcasm grows wearisome. The Bible does not have a dubious background, and contradictory facts, as you call them, are typically anything but. These are all cheap shots, easily made. If you believe them, kindly make your position known. If you don’t, I wonder if you recognize that such are less than inspirational to the intended audience.
NaSultainne, are you seriously alleging either that the Bible does not contain errors and logical contradictions or that evolution is not a proven fact? is it your contention that thousands of scientists in the fields of geology, biology, chemistry, etc. are all just lying about the evidence for evolutionary theory? You can check the facts for yourself, you know. You don’t have to take anybody;s word for it.
IWLN is right. When non-believers are confronted with obviously and demonstrably bogus assertions it just makes us roll our eyes. Faith has to be reconciled with reason if you want to spread it to others.
If faith could be reconciled with reason, you wouldn’t need faith. I guess this is a nit pick, but I think what you really mean is that one should minimize logical inconsistancies in one’s faith if one expects others to accept it readily.
While I’m answering the rest of your post, why don’t you just answer one point for me, if you wouldn’t mind. I came across this in the Bible today when I was hunting for a scriptural reason or excuse why Christians would condemn gays. I’m not going to debate that issue, but would like clarification on the scripture below:
Genesis 19
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
I’d like to know why this is one of the scriptures that describes homosexuality as a “wicked thing”, that is actually used to make a point against homosexuality, by Christians. But somehow Lot is saved by God as a good man, after he offered his daughters to the men to be raped in exchange for his visitors? Are you sure we’re supposed to take this literally and are you sure there are no contradictory facts or teachings. I have tons more that have to do with what you should do if a fellow Christian is stumbling that directly seem to contradict each other, but for now; just explain why God used to condemn gays and not pimps or cowards? Or just explain to me why somehow we’re not supposed to take this part literally and the next part we are? Was right and wrong by God’s laws different then? These are questions that come up all the time from people who are supposed to benefit by “The Great Commission”. I honestly hope there are good explanations for all of the glaring inconsistencies, but I was never taught to answer these questions, only to “have faith”. I do have faith in God, but not in the Bible’s literality or truth. I am truly not being sarcastic, but will admit to feeling frustrated by your inability to recognize that on the whole, here at SDMB, you are addressing a very intelligent audience in a way that actually insults any form of critical thought. It is like catering an event in a vegetarian community and serving roast pig.(okay, that was sarcastic).
[quote]
At no point have I stated otherwise. Some prepare the soil, some plant, some reap. 2 Tim 4:2-3 charges us to preach the Word, in season and out, to correct, rebuke and encourage. Such was my intent with Guinastasia. She is in some internal angst because of doubts, which can only be reconciled by addressing them. As she brought the point up, I am addressing it.
[/quonte]
Internal angst? Since WHEN?
And yeah, I was raised Catholic, but I am lapsed and am no longer practicing.
In a setting like this if you’re going to bring up Heaven, hell shouldn’t come first.
That is true. Your relationship with God is different than mine. We see him differently. The only thing for certain is that neither one of us is completely right. I can admit that, can you?
I don’t see it as angst, I see it as intelligent analysis.
Yes. We have a different opinion on how to achieve this.
Romans 11:6 explains that it is part of God’s plan that they not know until later. At least that is how it was explained to me.
Of course it’s too complex. I shouldn’t have said science doesn’t lie, because I’m sure facts have been falsified at different times. But the facts of evolution have been studied and researched by an impressive amount of scientists. Were they all conspiring to disprove God or did they all make the same errors? Evolution doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist or that he wasn’t the creator. The Catholic Church accepts evolution and they’re one of the slowest changing churches around. Did they conspire with the scientists?
Guin voiced concern over inconsistencies in what she feels from God and Christian teaching(sorry Guin, you can correct what I say wrong). Taking issue with some aspect of the Christian faith doesn’t indicate a lack of faith in God. You called her on how she could think her standards were better than Gods. Do you even remotely get that the Christian religion isn’t God and that it is okay for us to think something doesn’t sound right or is inconsistent. To say so is not wrong. If someone quotes the Bible as saying “few are going to heaven” and I really care about people, there is an emotional response. It contradicts what I feel from God and it is an appalling thought for everyone, or should be.
I pretty much think back then or now, smiting is smiting, etc. There are too many vague answers to these things.
You were speaking on a board with 42,197 members. If your message was only suitable for a few, then email would be more appropriate. The whole issue came up because of a Bible quote about not many making it to heaven. How does that not conflict with a loving God? These people aren’t very responsive to fear.
I would definitely agree that I’m not particularly being inspirational and for that I’m sorry. I think your message fell short of the mark too. I don’t claim to be a Christian anymore, because I want to do better than I could when I was. I’m working on it, with God’s help. Oh, by the way, I attend the Catholic Church, but don’t believe all of it. Does that make *me[i/] lapsed? Do you believe everything your church teaches?