In my serious days of deep meditaive prayer I had an experience of a warm and lenlightened contact with God. When I asked her, "How did you make the universe, anyway? We were sitting around and discussing it and all,so hey ", and before I could contimue God answered rather sternly, I thought,“Who is this?”
“Its me, Mike” , I said. I then heard this muffled : “Trace this prayerl”
Well, feeling a deep sense of aprehension I did, then as they used to say in the street, during the olden days, split. I hung out in Wickenburg , Arizona for a few years-- the last place God would ever look for me. Do you think I did the right and proper thing and was I moral, or were my actions spirituallu expedient?
And , finally, have I missed anything important that you think I should know about?
:o
In my serious days of deep meditaive prayer I had an experience of a warm and lenlightened contact with God. When I asked her, "How did you make the universe, anyway? We were sitting around and discussing it and all,so hey ", and before I could contimue God answered rather sternly, I thought,“Who is this?”
“Its me, Mike” , I said. I then heard this muffled : “Trace this prayerl”
Well, feeling a deep sense of aprehension I did, then as they used to say in the street, during the olden days, split. I hung out in Wickenburg , Arizona for a few years-- the last place God would ever look for me. Do you think I did the right and proper thing and was I moral, or were my actions spirituallu expedient?
And , finally, have I missed anything important that you think I should know about?
:o
The sin of Sodom is mentioned first in Gen 13:13. This is the point at which Lot and Abraham have parted ways, Lot having first choice and choosing the plains surrounding Sodom. Some time later Lot has moved into Sodom (Gen 14:12) and eventually is a city leader just prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19:1). Lot, a righteous man, tormented by “filthy lives of lawless men” (2Pet 2:7) nontheless lives amongst them. God, under Abraham’s urging, has agreed to spare the town should 10 righteous people be found, yet only six at most are identified, and that’s if you count Lot, his wife, two daughters and sons-in-law.
It’s a great message of the dangers of accommodating sin, isn’t it? And remember, Lot was described as righteous, not perfect.
Really, now. When you read any book, don’t you distinguish between metaphorical expression, phenomenoligical language, parable, narrative, and so on? You do, don’t you, by looking for internal clues to suggest something other than a literal narrative.
Sheesh, He didn’t explicitly condemn cardsharks or ponzi schemes, either.
The rules of language interpretation.
Who said they changed? I didn’t.
Then you were gypped. Reading the Bible is the easy part. Digging into the life, times, cultures discussed, all this takes time and study. Haven’t you ever wondered why scholars in this field have devoted lifetimes to study of the Bible, and at that, thousands of years after countless other scholars have already done the same. There’s a lot there, and a superficial understanding is of limited value.
Cool. So, tell me, who is this God you describe? And where do you get your information?
Oh my! Dear, I’ve been around this board for nigh on five years, lurking much, much more than I’ve ever posted. I am quite familiar with many of the esteemed posters, for good or ill. As for critical thought, far too many people seem to take that term in its most common usage, and deny the scholars who, as noted above, dedicate careers to study of the Bible in one area or another, and thus, have far more gravitas behind them. An intelligent person can have spiritual blinders on that short-circuit the rational mind.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NaSultainne *
**The sin of Sodom is mentioned first in Gen 13:13. This is the point at which Lot and Abraham have parted ways, Lot having first choice and choosing the plains surrounding Sodom. Some time later Lot has moved into Sodom (Gen 14:12) and eventually is a city leader just prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19:1).
The simple question I have is;: Who was the entity that planned and executed the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which if I remember are cities where humans lived, men women and children. Is there some kind of process that some people performed that jsutified this destruction? Was there authorization from the political powers that were functioning at the time? Was there an apeal process? Wee the people notified of the impending doom, or were they effectively nuked by some tyerrible force? I have it on some authorirty that Lot’s wife met her end in a manner that leads me to opine th epossibility that she was observing the delivery of a nuclear device on those, now long vaporized men, women and children.
Yes, and what’s more, as God is far above me, I will only ever be able to appreciate some small part of His glory. Still, I crave to acquire every bit I can.
Sorry again, Guin, don’t need to hang angst around your neck like an albatross!
I’ll still disagree on your point; referring to God as a “sadistic bastard” who finds enjoyment tormenting people is not intelligent analysis, it’s very nearly argument by outrage.
You’ve lost me. Paul is discussing the Jews and their stumbling by rejecting the promised Messiah. Please clarify.
I don’t belong to the Catholic Church, so won’t attempt to defend their teachings or doctrine. Suffice it to say that the claims made for evolutionary progress are still being questioned.
Quite right. That’s not the point. The point is, there are difficult sections of the Bible. The question is, does one reject the teaching based on emotional response, or does one seek further edification? I recommend the latter.
Of course I called her on it. And it’s always right and smart to question what you don’t understand. How in sam hell would anyone ever learn anything if no one ever asked questions? The problem wasn’t asking, the problem was taking another’s stated position and rejecting it based on emotion, gut, feelings. Telling me that you don’t agree with God because He says something mean does not, repeat not impress me.
bolding mine
There ya go. You feel and you think. Based on emotional responses to unsettling scripture. Are you satisfied to go on feeling this way or are you going to look further?
Not really. Some answers require careful consideration. God isn’t simple. Aren’t people always asking why God didn’t just write the Ten Commandments and leave it at that?
Kindly don’t dictate posting etiquette. I directly and specifically addressed another poster. That’s how this board works. Poster A says something, Poster B responds, and so on.
Okay, so you’re really hung up on verses indicating that not many make it to heaven. Okay. So, who should go to heaven, in your opinion? Everyone? Or would you begin excluding people, say, murderers, rapists and the like? And then, what about the rich people who never helped the poor? How ‘bout those who stole the life savings of little ol’ ladies? How 'bout the selfish, the greedy, the liars, the wife abusers, the child beaters… At what point do you call a halt to the exclusions? I’m serious. What about die-hard atheists who want nothing to do with God? Should He let them in, too? You do see where I’m going, don’t you? Do people who couldn’t be bothered to follow God’s rules here belong in heaven? Would anyone call that heaven?
I thoroughly researched this church before attending it. I had e-mail correspondence with the pastor to satisfy my questions. I have yet to run into areas of significant disagreement. Shall I let you know if I do?
So mr Nosultanine, do you know who nuked sodom and gomorah?
Who was it that dropped that nuclear device on their city that Mrs. Lot just had to turn and peek at?
Oh, heck, sorry to bother you, I think I found it here, yes: Genesis 19:24 “Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from the heavens upon Sodom and Gomorrah.”
Look at Mr. DEmbarrassed here. I thought it was a nuke, of course, the old sulphur and fire bomb. Werll if I could just find my cane ’ … but I can’t get up.
Hey, Nosult, You seem to be aquainted with some very powerful people who might just know who is responsble for the death and destruction. I think you shoul;d tell that God fellow about Mr. Jehovah. Drop a dime on 'em, as they say in the streets.
Now, I’m no Bible expert, but didn’t someone-or-another actually talk God out of destroying Sodom & Gomorrah outright? That he got God to change his mind?
It went something like:
God: Sodom’s full of sin. I’m going to toast the joint.
Someone: What, you’re going to kill everyone? What if there are 50 innocent people in there?
God: Well, yeah…I guess I wouldn’t destroy it, then.
Someone: What about 45 people?
God:…No.
Someone: 30? 30 people?
God: No.
Someone: 25, then? 15? What if it was only 10 people?
God: All right, fine…if you can find 10 innocent people in Sodom, it won’t be destroyed.
Ah, this site says it was an arguement between God and Abraham.
So…God’s opinion can be swayed, by a mere human?
Ranchoth
And it also seems that God favors the “base ten” counting system.
I know the history of it, but thank you. You’re very good at this.
That’s it! That’s the type of response these questions usually receive. Sounds like a good answer, but really isn’t saying anything. Could you clarify? It appears that Lot wasn’t any better than the people God killed. A mob tries to grab and rape a couple of “angels” or a father tries to give the mob his children to rape.
Yes, I do. I was wondering if you did? When you apply that sound method on the above scriptures does it only give you a vague “moral of the story”? How did religion make the leap from violient promiscuous men being wicked, to gay men being wicked, from this scripture?
No but he did bring up lying diviners, dreamers, sorcerers, etc. I’m thinking the cardsharks fall under either liars or cheaters.
So handing your children over to a pack of wolves, no matter when you did it is still a sin?
Did that section of the Bible come right after Revelation. Or are you depending on men, who miraculously had no ego, no pride, no religious affiliation and maybe were gifted with a little clairvoyance.
I think the scholars do their best, but would say same answer as the rules of language interpretation applies here. You are putting a lot into other people’s hands and trusting them with your lives. I think you’re only supposed to do that with God.
Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you told me you knew him. Well to start with, there’s only one, that I know of. Although, sometimes it seems like we’re talking about two different deities. I got my information from God. I feel his presence, he answers my questions and he dropped in for a visit one day. I realize I’m being irreverent, but I did see him and I do feel him and he does answer prayer. Now describe yours.
Great group of posters here. I hope you didn’t let that “not believing in God” thing keep you from getting to know them. Again, as for the scholars, I don’t deny their contribution, but you can’t study religion and know God from it. And there are a lot of “righteous” people here who don’t know God. They seem more moral than Lot. Are you sure God doesn’t have a plan for them, that doesn’t involve eternal torture? I’m just not getting that kind of feeling from God. You do realize he has a sense of humor, don’t you?
You’re absolutely correct, I apologize, but that is what brought the comment from Guin or at least I believe it was the source of the sadistic comment.
So do I and that’s why I ask him instead of counting on a book.
I’ll admit there was a lot of frustration in the comment. It’s not a good thing to say, but the sentiment is shared by many. I know it’s not like it seems. He is fiercely loving and compassionate.
Oops sorry. Romans 11. You probably need to read the whole chapter. The way this was explained to me is God wasn’t real happy with the Jews and he basically blocked them from knowing him and the truth about Jesus until the time was right, which hasn’t come yet. There’s also another accounting of it in the OT, I believe.
Only by some religions. There are many details that they’re still working on, but the fact of evolution isn’t in doubt. There are other scriptures that were taken out of the Bible that say that all life and everything with a spirit came out of the ocean. The Catholic Church removed it, probably didn’t fit with Adam and Eve in their opinion.
Of course you learn all you can, but always ask for God’s help if you don’t understand. I didn’t think she rejected anything but some other people’s interpretations, because they seemed contrary to a loving God.
You know, if it were God actually saying it, we would have to deal with it. The hard part is determining the word of God from the words of men.
Actually it’s italics, but I’ll let let you slide on that one.
I ask God for help with it.
Well you can always use “it’s a mystery”.
I’m not dictating anything. You stated you weren’t speaking to a non-believer and I just pointed out that there were quite a few listening. It is okay to rebuke a fellow believer, but you’re not doing it like the Bible says. But neither am I right now, which I feel a little sad about and I do apologize if I’ve said anything to offend you.
Since you’re asking me what I think I’ll tell you, even though I’m not sure if it’s true. EVERYONE would be my choice. None of us really totally deserve it anyway. Obviously they have to repent, but I’m hoping there’s still a chance of that even after death.(remember this is my heaven wish list) I can forgive all of the above people, so it should be even easier for God to. He’s alot more generous than I am. I don’t resent the fact that I gave to the poor and they didn’t or feel I am somehow more entitled. I will always feel lucky I was given the life I was and know that it was only a chance of birth in the right family, the right country that gave me that gift. I’m sure we’ll both agree that Jesus died for our sins. If you believe the message that came with that was to show a pure example of love, compassion, forgiveness and sacrifice and that we are supposed to follow that; how could you not want everyone to go to heaven? He didn’t die so only Christians could go to heaven or just people who truly knew him. We were supposed to understand who God was from that act. Not use it to exclude most of the world’s people and religions. Not to exclude die-hard atheists who are righteous people, but have never felt God’s hand. God’s supreme act of love and sacrifice does make all sins forgiveable. So there is no reason to not include everyone. Your question, “Would anyone call that Heaven?” makes me wonder, could anyone call it Heaven if you knew there were people suffering for eternity. I don’t feel like I deserve Heaven more than anyone else. Everything I’ve done in this life was because I care about people, not because I was aiming at some promised reward. I would have done it even if I didn’t believe. Scriptures say that God loves us all, so being as omnipotent as he is, do you figure he might have a back up plan? He’s pretty wise, you know.
One thing I think we all need to keep in mind is that different people are called to different ministries and have had different experiences with God.
My life has brought me in contact with people who suffer from clincal depression, and I’ve battled that disease for most of my life. The people I come in contact with are often convinced of their own sinfulness, some to the point where they have quite literally believed they don’t deserve to live. To use a less extreme example, I’ve also come in contact with people who, to vastly over-simplify, believe they are too sinful or too wierd to be Christians, therefore, if you ask them, they would say Christianity rejected them. Part of who I am and part of what God has taught me is how to reach out to them. 11 years ago, when I was flat on my back, close to catatonic from depression in a hospital in Hawaii, I didn’t need to be told I was a sinner; I knew that all too well and was doing my level best to die. God showed me mercy, even though I was too far gone to ask for it, broke that catatonia and gave me life. I’ve been an outcast, unwelcome pretty much anywhere, and told how awful I was for not doing what everyone else said was right. What that was was ending a friendship with an abnormal, handicapped friend.
NaSultainne (she’s female, by the way, as am I), may well be in contact with, oh, I don’t know, people like the cad being Pitted right now, people who seem to think they can do no wrong and that morality and doing what’s right doesn’t matter. In that case, her ministry might be appropriate. I’ve certainly been frustrated enough by people who continue to do sinful things simply because they can. I have a pet peeve about adultery; I can certainly see myself saying to someone “How can you call yourself a Christian when you’re having an affair?!” and, if lesser methods didn’t work, ending a friendship because of it.
I also know that 150 years ago, arguments for slavery were being made just as strongly, just as stridently, and with just as much Biblical basis as arguments against homosexuality. After all, in 3 places, Paul gives instructions on how masters and slaves are to behave (Ephesians 6, Collosians 3 and 4, and Titus 2). I was taught that for me to desire affection, let alone sex was awful and disgusting, not because I was gay (I’m straight), but because I was unpopular and “fucking ugly”. I know how it feels first hand, and it’s one reason I’ve never married and am still vaguely surprised when someone’s interested in me. One of the people who was kind to me and who remains one of the most decent, honorable people I know is a gay man in a 10 year relationship with a fellow who might just measure up to him. I’ve read the verses in Leviticus, the Gospels and Paul; I also know that 3 verses before Leviticus bans homosexuality, it also bans men approaching their wives for sex while their wives are menstruating, not that that gets much publicity. Besides, I figure there are some husbands who genuinely may not know – are they, too, abominations? Paul and Christ also condemn gossip, malice, slander, and greed alongside homosexuality, yet those don’t get nearly as much condemnation from some Christians. I cannot believe that the friend I mentioned is somehow worse because he is homosexual than the people whose gossip, malice, and slander were directly responsible for that handicapped friend of mine having a nervous breakdown when she was 16. I know there mey be people in this thread whom that belief will offend, but I stand by it.
We’ve drifted far away from the OP, and for that I also apologize. Ultimately, I have one yardstick by which I measure my faith and my actions, and I believe it is the one Christ has commanded me too. It is why I do accept evolution and why I act as I do. I’ve used the King James Version a few times here, and I’ll use it once again because the language is clear to me and beautiful: Matthew 22:34-40
If my actions do not pass those two tests, no matter how many Levitical instructions they don’t break, no matter how they fare compared to Paul’s instructions, I have sinned. In a few hours, with my congregation I will pray,
(prayer continues)
I have not loved my nieghbors as myself or as God commanded me to (I haven’t always loved myself much), and I have much to repent of this week.
Na Sultainne, I also want to pass on to you another prayer the Episcopal Church uses, this one before Communion, most commonly during Lent. It’s one I find particularly powerful, and not just because it reminds me of my place:
These are prayers I grew up with, ones which shaped my life and my faith. I serve God as best I know how, but I have no claim to righteousness, only to servanthood, and that only by God’s grace. I have been accused of leading people to hell. I do not believe I am doing that, for, if I did, I would stop. I only know that I have been given this path and others have been given other paths. They may appear to lead in radically different directions, but, because the God I worship is so far beyond limits as to render them ridiculous, the possibility exists that we may all be right. The Commandment Christ gave us, gave me in Matthew 22:39 demands that I treat such people respect even when I disagree with them. When I fail to do so, as I have, out of anger and hurt, I have sinned, and I am required to repent.
Do you have an actual passage in mind or any evidence for this claim? (Have the Jews left that passage in the Tanakh? How about the Protestants? Have the Orthodox included or excluded the passage?)
The first cite shows the story behind all the books that were removed by the Council of Laodicea. The second cite shows the actual scripture. The verse I was referring to:
I don’t know much about the history of it other than it is documented by the Catholic church as being banned. The creation story is kind of bizarre and very specific. There are all kinds of measurments for the mechanics of our solar system. Not that I have a clue if they’re valid or not. I just find it fascinating writing regardless of what the church “deemed appropriate”.
Well, it was hardly banned by the Catholic church if you cannot find it in the works accepted by the Jews, Orthodox, and Protestants. For that matter, it was never banned at all–it was simply noted that it did not hve the full authority of Scripture and tended to fall out of publication.
In fact, Enoch (in its several variants) has never been considered Scripture by any of the principal religious groups, Jewish or Christian, any more than the Assumption of Moses or the Life of Adam and Eve or the Apocalypse of Adam or any number of other works were accepted as Scripture. Similarly, among New Testament works, there were people who revered the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, the Letter of Barnabas and even the first Letter of Clement, but they received no broad support to be accepted as Scripture. At no time has any religious group declared that every work about God was Scripture, even works that contained thoughts that were deemed useful. (And given that Enoch was never considered Scripture*, it is a bit of a stretch to claim that it was removed for a single line–and your initial claim appeared to say that only that line had been removed.) The Council of Laodicea simply noted the accepted traditions of the period.
*(Among the Church Fathers, I can only find a “scripture” reference from Tertullian–who got mad and quit the church after only ten years, himself.)
You know I never laid claim to this book being sacred or anything; just interesting, but you seem to be debating me over it. Put in Secrets of Enoch Banned under your Google search and you will find many, many different groups saying it was banned. They actually destoyed copies of it. The Catholic church was the Orthodox church until the split 1054a.d. I think. The Protestant church was founded in the 1500’s. When the book was estimated to be written, late 1st century I think, the Romans were chasing the Jews all over the place. They may have missed it in their struggle for survival, but the book actually was thought to be written by a Jew or Jews. So none of the groups you mentioned either existed or were openly organized at the time the book was written. The Jewishencyclopedia.com talks about it. I could go on, but it doesn’t matter. I find any and all literature that is that old to be very fascinating and it was a good read. The church doesn’t have to endorse it for it to be worth reading.
To all those who say they don’t want to go “through this” again…
your life must be pretty awful and hopeless if you cannot consider life on earth as ever being satisfying. I cannot imagine what that is like. My life isn’t all honey and roses, but if I had another chance to start over, I’d jump at the opportunity. There are a million things to do in this world and never enough time to do them! There’s no guarantee of anything after - we should be thankful for what we have.
Part of what makes life enjoyable for human beings is goals and “anticipation” - I see no goals in images of “heaven”.
What I challenged was your specific claim that the Catholic church banned it (with the speculation that the “banning” was tied to a defense of Genesis). Your claim that the Orthodox were Catholics until 1054 is liable to incur an entirely wrathful reply from Dogface or a milder rebuke from our other Orthodox posters. I pointed out that no group ever considered it Scripture for the purpose of showing that it was not an issue of getting rid of something that had already been accepted.
The development of the canon in each of the Jewish and Christian groups is a fascinating study of a really messy human activity (guided or not, by God, as one’s belief suggests), but it is rarely so cut and dried as one group or another resorting to skulduggery to shape their view of Scripture.
