Christian scientists are liars, IMHO

[Nzinga_Seated]

Not members of the church of Christian Science, but scientists who are christians.

I have always suspected this, but I bit my tongue for many reasons. One reason is, I don’t have much of a formal education. I can be backed down easily if someone starts spitting some math at me, so I figured I should probably not be throwing accusations at scientist who can obliterate me in a battle and the ref won’t cheat him!

But it has always nagged at me. I know a crooked preacher who used to build with me when we were young about all the ways that christianity doesn’t make sense and clashes with what he had learned about science. Well, now that he is a pastor, I always think of those conversations we had as kids and wonder if he is purposely misleading those poor church goin’ folks (the ways that I know he is crooked have nothing to do with our conversations about god as kids)

Today, I saw this video by mathematician Alexander Tsiaras. I watched the whole thing and was sucked in and razzle dazzled by its beauty. I did flinch when he used the words ‘magic’ and ‘divinity’. I wanted to believe that he didn’t mean it in that way. But I think he did.

I found this response when I was searching online for some other viewpoints about the video. It is on an atheist website, so, biased, naturally. But I do love the way he ‘debunks’ the original commentary of the Tsiaras video.

Overall, I find myself back to where I started, which is, not really believing that Tsiaras finds the human process of conception to birth a divine mystery. I think he knows damn well that it isn’t a ‘godly’ event at all, but he chooses to not say that.

I don’t know why. I have long suspected that some scientists refrain from saying they don’t believe in god because of pressure from family or friends or loved ones. I have read often that Stephen Hawking stayed in the closet for so long because his wife would have been devastated. I think there is major pressure there. I know that in my culture, coming out as “non christian” is a huge stigma. Big. You can say you aren’t religious…you can never go to church…but in my culture, if you say, “I don’t believe in God or Jesus” you are going to be judged very harshly. If this is something that scientists have to contend with also, then I can see why they feel like they have to lie.

I think that most scientists who know their math and physics and chemistry, and so on… and still say they are christian; They might be lying.

I don’t think it is accurate to say that it is my opinion that they are lying. They are either lying for a fact, or not, for a fact. I think it would be accurate for me to say, *I think *they are lying. I may be wrong.

[Guinastasia]

You mean like this guy?

Come on. This is just the flipside of “Atheists are just people who are pissed off at God.” :dubious:

[Nzinga_Seated]

You may be right. I admit that I’m pulling this all out of my ass. I think the “atheists are just pissed off at god” thing to be kind of kick ass, actually. I mean, to be pissed at GOD and stand against him when you believe he is real?? That is fairly awesome.

[sisu]

meh, I am trained in Science and still call myself a Christian.

I see no conflict at all…

[Lord_Ashtar]

@sisu

meh, I am trained in Science and still call myself a Christian.

I see no conflict at all…

Same here. I also like sugar in my porridge.

[Lobot]

I don’t think a scientific understanding of the world directly conflicts with religion (if taken on a purely metaphysical level). The two can coexist–see NOMA.

However, I do think that science undermines religion because it suggests a worldview in conflict with one where there is an objective purpose behind everything. Christian scientists may not admit this even to themselves, but the conflict is there, IMHO.

[The_Niply_Elder]

Engineering > Physics > Math > Philosophy

Somewhere along this continuum lies religion.

[sisu]

@Lobot

I don’t think a scientific understanding of the world directly conflicts with religion (if taken on a purely metaphysical level). The two can coexist–see NOMA.

However, I do think that science undermines religion because it suggests a worldview in conflict with one where there is an objective purpose behind everything. Christian scientists may not admit this even to themselves, but the conflict is there, IMHO.

yeah I hear you and have pondered on that argument but still have no seen nothing to change my mind that science is about the engineering of the universe and religion is about the purpose. I see no conflict, I guess that is why I am the way I am.

[Nzinga_Seated]

@Lobot

…The two can coexist–see NOMA…

I don’t think that NOMA is a good example of science and religion coexisting. If anything, it seems to try to fill in the questions that science hasn’t answered with god as an answer.

[Bemused]

@Nzinga_Seated

Not members of the church of Christian Science, but scientists who are christians.

I have always suspected this, but I bit my tongue for many reasons. One reason is, I don’t have much of a formal education. I can be backed down easily if someone starts spitting some math at me, so I figured I should probably not be throwing accusations at scientist who can obliterate me in a battle and the ref won’t cheat him!

But it has always nagged at me. I know a crooked preacher who used to build with me when we were young about all the ways that christianity doesn’t make sense and clashes with what he had learned about science. Well, now that he is a pastor, I always think of those conversations we had as kids and wonder if he is purposely misleading those poor church goin’ folks (the ways that I know he is crooked have nothing to do with our conversations about god as kids)

Today, I saw this video by mathematician Alexander Tsiaras. I watched the whole thing and was sucked in and razzle dazzled by its beauty. I did flinch when he used the words ‘magic’ and ‘divinity’. I wanted to believe that he didn’t mean it in that way. But I think he did.

I found this response when I was searching online for some other viewpoints about the video. It is on an atheist website, so, biased, naturally. But I do love the way he ‘debunks’ the original commentary of the Tsiaras video.

Overall, I find myself back to where I started, which is, not really believing that Tsiaras finds the human process of conception to birth a divine mystery. I think he knows damn well that it isn’t a ‘godly’ event at all, but he chooses to not say that.

I don’t know why. I have long suspected that some scientists refrain from saying they don’t believe in god because of pressure from family or friends or loved ones. I have read often that Stephen Hawking stayed in the closet for so long because his wife would have been devastated. I think there is major pressure there. I know that in my culture, coming out as “non christian” is a huge stigma. Big. You can say you aren’t religious…you can never go to church…but in my culture, if you say, “I don’t believe in God or Jesus” you are going to be judged very harshly. If this is something that scientists have to contend with also, then I can see why they feel like they have to lie.

I think that most scientists who know their math and physics and chemistry, and so on… and still say they are christian; They might be lying.

I don’t think it is accurate to say that it is my opinion that they are lying. They are either lying for a fact, or not, for a fact. I think it would be accurate for me to say, *I think *they are lying. I may be wrong.

And I think that by your own admission you are totally unqualified to know what they think.

I know any number of scientists who profess to have faith. I don’t challenge 'em on it. Why should I? Not my business anyway.

[Nzinga_Seated]

Correct, Bemused. I am totally unqualified to know what they think. Agreed.

[sisu]

@Nzinga_Seated

I don’t think that NOMA is a good example of science and religion coexisting. If anything, it seems to try to fill in the questions that science hasn’t answered with god as an answer.

Sorry mate not how I see it, what it is saying is that science has it’s realm as does religion.

Again if you are anti religion or a fundamentalist you see this as weak, but to the majority of religious folk in the world it makes complete sense.

I may use a quick analogy if I may. It has been said that there was major opposition for smallpox vaccinations from religious people. What you need to remember it was the major churches that drove a lot of the vaccinations, it was only fringe Protestant sects [like many found in the USA] that opposed it. We also fundamental Jewish and Muslim sects opposing polio vaccinations for similar reasons.

So once again the whole of the religious community is held up as being anti science when in fact it is a small minority. In fact I would go as far to say that some atheists do not approve of vaccinations.

[Trinopus]

@The_Niply_Elder

Engineering > Physics > Math > Philosophy

Somewhere along this continuum lies religion.

I would have said, rather, that Religion is the next item in the sequence.

(Fritz Leiber wrote of his having changed majors in college, several times, almost exactly along these lines.)

re the OP, most of the people who are both scientifically literate and religious know enough to keep from making concrete claims about the physical world in terms of their religion. Only fools claim that earthquakes or hurricanes are punishment for our sins, for instance, or that a literal Great Flood occurred 9,000 years ago.

One can say, “The guiding principle of the universe is love” without concern for empirical disproof. It isn’t an issue that science is even interested in. A scientist would say it “isn’t even wrong.” Faith is individual, personal, subjective, and, really, nobody else’s business.

[Nzinga_Seated]

Look, folks gotta stop saying it’s no one else’ biz. People do indeed put their religious beliefs out there for discussion. All the time.

[Der_Trihs]

@Lobot

I don’t think a scientific understanding of the world directly conflicts with religion (if taken on a purely metaphysical level). The two can coexist–see NOMA.

Thatr’s not “coexistence”. That’s sucking up to religion, pretending to a false equivalence, giving religion false respect, and pretending that the fact that religion is incoherent & baseless somehow makes it profound. Religion and science are natural enemies; they demand opposite types of thought, opposite attitudes towards facts and logic, and science keeps proving religion wrong while religion is devoted to imposing its falsehoods on humanity. Religion and science harm each other simply by existing, regardless of the intentions of the followers of either; it is their nature.

@Nzinga_Seated

Look, folks gotta stop saying it’s no one else’ biz. People do indeed put their religious beliefs out there for discussion. All the time.

What they mean by that is that unbelievers and scientists should either shut up, or lie about how wonderful religion is and how it deserves respect. Meanwhile, the believers will continue to openly push their nonsense, talk about how wonderful they are and how vile unbelievers are, while screaming about how persecuted they are if anyone argues against them.

[sisu]

@Der_Trihs

Thatr’s not “coexistence”. That’s sucking up to religion, pretending to a false equivalence, giving religion false respect, and pretending that the fact that religion is incoherent & baseless somehow makes it profound. Religion and science are natural enemies; they demand opposite types of thought, opposite attitudes towards facts and logic, and science keeps proving religion wrong while religion is devoted to imposing its falsehoods on humanity. Religion and science harm each other simply by existing, regardless of the intentions of the followers of either; it is their nature.

Religion and Science are not enemies, they co exist and if you are not smart enough to understand this then I pity you.

Science has not proven religion wrong, what it has done is proven some stories to be factually not possible. The stories are part of the myth and not to be taken literally.

There you go with your ignorant painting of ALL religious people in the same colour. :smack:

@Der_Trihs

What they mean by that is that unbelievers and scientists should either shut up, or lie about how wonderful religion is and how it deserves respect. Meanwhile, the believers will continue to openly push their nonsense, talk about how wonderful they are and how vile unbelievers are, while screaming about how persecuted they are if anyone argues against them.

Bullshit mate, that is not how the majority of worldwide religious people feel.

All we ask for is respect of a fellow human being, we do not expect you to respect religion and mate it is none of my concern what you believe or think, that is up to you. But try and force your view on me and I will kick back…

[Lobot]

@Der_Trihs

Thatr’s not “coexistence”. That’s sucking up to religion, pretending to a false equivalence, giving religion false respect, and pretending that the fact that religion is incoherent & baseless somehow makes it profound. Religion and science are natural enemies; they demand opposite types of thought, opposite attitudes towards facts and logic, and science keeps proving religion wrong while religion is devoted to imposing its falsehoods on humanity. Religion and science harm each other simply by existing, regardless of the intentions of the followers of either; it is their nature.

I think you’ve misunderstood me. I’m saying that technically, if you strip religion down to metaphysics, it does not conflict with science, but the larger worldviews presented by either are in conflict and it’s perhaps disingenuous to suggest that they aren’t.

[Der_Trihs]

@sisu

Religion and Science are not enemies, they co exist and if you are not smart enough to understand this then I pity you.

I’m not interested in the patronizing, self-congratulatory “pity” of the believers towards unbelievers.

@sisu

Science has not proven religion wrong, what it has done is proven some stories to be factually not possible. The stories are part of the myth and not to be taken literally.

Science has proven religion wrong again and again whenever it has made a claim that science can check. All this nonsense about how science doesn’t apply to religion and religion doesn’t speck about anything physically detectable; that’s all a fallback position. Intellectually religion has been driven back and back from its original claims, until now it is like a continent-spanning empire that has been reduced to a single small island, with an Emperor who insists that the island is all there ever was to his Empire.

@sisu

Bullshit mate, that is not how the majority of worldwide religious people feel.

Yes, it is; aside from the one who just want to kill the unbelievers and be done with it.

@sisu

@Der_Trihs

What they mean by that is that unbelievers and scientists should either shut up, or lie about how wonderful religion is and how it deserves respect. Meanwhile, the believers will continue to openly push their nonsense, talk about how wonderful they are and how vile unbelievers are, while screaming about how persecuted they are if anyone argues against them.

But try and force your view on me and I will kick back…

I’m not the one writing my beliefs into law; that would be your fellow believers who are doing that whenever they can. You demonstrate my point for me; to the believers, even arguing against their religion on a message board qualifies as “forcing my view” on them; while writing their religion into the law isn’t.

[sisu]

@Der_Trihs

I’m not the one writing my beliefs into law; that would be your fellow believers who are doing that whenever they can. You demonstrate my point for me; to the believers, even arguing against their religion on a message board qualifies as “forcing my view” on them; while writing their religion into the law isn’t.

Again you make the mistake of gross generalisations. Remember your view of religion is through your filters that have built up over the years .

I did not say that you were forcing your views on me, jeez that is one of the reasons I come here, to hear other peoples’ views!

When someone tries to put their subjective beliefs into law I will oppose them. Separation of church and state must be complete, although given that there are so many views this will be hard.

[Guinastasia]

@Der_Trihs

What they mean by that is that unbelievers and scientists should either shut up, or lie about how wonderful religion is and how it deserves respect. Meanwhile, the believers will continue to openly push their nonsense, talk about how wonderful they are and how vile unbelievers are, while screaming about how persecuted they are if anyone argues against them.

Would you kindly stop speaking for every religious believer out there?