Christianity and homosexuality - please explain

Noted.

I’m not sure that we can agree on that. From what I’ve read, it’s very likely that those 2 verses weren’t referring to any and all homosexual activity. Either way, appealing to I Kings 15:5 is using a bit of circular logic. I could also claim that David and Jonathan had a homosexual relationship, and that I Kings 15:5 proves that God didn’t disapprove, therefore confirming my initial beliefs about the OT and homosexuality.

I do appreciate your input, and hope that you read further in the thread and answer my more recent questions. :slight_smile:

cmkeller, I have a some questions about a couple verses in I Samuel.

1.) What does I Samuel 20:30 mean?

It sounds like something bad, but I’m having trouble understanding exactly what Saul is saying.

2.) Regarding I Samuel 20:41…

What does “exceeded” mean here?

Thanks -

IMO, the whole David and Jonathan episode is vastly overplayed by both sides of the story. And what happens is that all parties bring their own opinions to the table and try to make the story fit them, rather than working from the story to see what it has to say.

First, David and Jonathan were not gay, in the sense of a Kinsey-6 individual as the term is used today. Ample proof of this can be found in subsequent verses where both marry and have children (granted, that in itself is not necessarily proof of their orientation), and where, Jonathan having died young, David ends up lusting for various women, Bathsheba in particular. (And let’s be clear that his desire is not condemned in and of itself; what’s condemned is his lusting for the wife of another man, and encompassing his death in order to legally get her.)

Now, that to one side, the question of what exactly they did and felt is on the table. And it is clear that they were extremely emotionally close, loving friends, who were unafraid of the physical expression of that love. Granted that male-bonding expression differs across cultural lines, I doubt that any straight man here would be inclined to utilize the methodology that they had no problem with in expressing his feelings for his closest friend. At least in my 55 years of life I have not been accustomed to seeing good friends embracing, kissing, weeping on each other, and professing undying love for each other. On the other hand, to suggest that this went to the extent of sexual release, while a plausible inference, is not borne out from the text. The actual text of Scripture makes no reference to sexual, as opposed to romantic, contact between them. And I do think the distinction is important to make, given the issues at hand.

But to bring the idea that David walked uprightly before God, and all gay men are sinners, so we know he wasn’t gay, is circular reasoning – it’s assuming what you’re trying to prove. The issue at hand is the question of what the commands in Leviticus and the condemnations in Romans, I Corinthians, etc., were intended to apply to. Diogenes has in various threads, with such assistance as I and others have been able to render, explained the reasoning behind the presumption that homosexual temple prostitution was behind some of the passages, and the practice of prostituting enslaved “rent boys” in the thriving red light district of Corinth behind the Corinthians passage.

Now, Talmudic evidence might well be useful in addressing the Leviticus passages, and perhaps the David and Jonathan passage from I Samuel (and the interesting language of David’s lament in II Samuel 1). I’d welcome seeing what it gives. It must, however, be remembered that the Talmud is itself not contemporary with the issues at hand, but compiled over several hundred years overlapping the production of the New Testament – so at best it reflects what the Jewish teachers of later generations made of the passages in question.

But let us not prove our case, either way, by assuming what we seek to prove.

That section of Leviticus, chapter 18, is mostly concerned with whose nakedness you cannot uncover. But, the injunction just before the one about not laying with mankind is “And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy G-d: I am the Lord” (English translation from Pentateuch & Haftorahs, Soncino Press)

The chapter starts off with 'I am the Lord, thy G-d. You follow my rules and do what I say. Capice?" Then, we have a list of who we can’t uncover naked (thy daughter’s daughter, thy father’s daughter, thy nephew’s brother’s cousin’s former roommate, etc). After that list, we get a mention of Molech. Then, we get the condemnation in question.

Why the break in the list? Arguably, the ban is on the religious practices of other faiths. Before the list of nakednesses, we have “After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do; and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do; neither shall we walk in their statutes.”

The list of marriages is a statement that what is acceptable to the Canaanites and the Egyptians because of their religion, is not accepable among the Jews for the same reason.

But the second time that the Lord pauses for station identification, he mentions an explicity religious practice. Either, this statement is here for no reason, or it is somehow connected to what comes before or after. The condemnation after laying with mankind is bestiality. Did any group do either of these as a religous practice? Arguably, they did. I’ll go digging for cites tomorrow.

Right now, I want to log off, walk down the street to the Chinese Super Buffet and discover just how much I can eat. (Actually, I only logged on in the first place due to a nagging fear that Yom Kippur is tomorrow rather than today.)

Ritual bestiality. I don’t know about but nothing would surprise me.

As to homosexuality, though, Canaanite temples employed both male and female prostitutes. In fact, Deuteronomy, 23:17,18 contains the following injunction:

[sup]17[/sup]None of the daughters of Israel shall be a cult prostitute, nor shall any of the sons of Israel be a cult prostitute.
[sup]18[/sup]You shall not bring the hire of a harlot or the wages of a dog into the house of the LORD your God for any votive offering, for both of these are an abomination to the LORD your God."

I don’t know Hebrew and I don’t feel as comfortable analyzing Hebrew Scriptures as I do with with the Greek NT, but everything I’ve read about this says that the Hebrew phrase mahir kelev “pay of a dog,” was a reference to male temple prostitutes, derisively called “dogs” because of the…um…shall we say…“position” they had put themselves in.

In any case, the preceding verse makes a direct refernce to male temple prostitutes.

Rucksinator:

Fair enough. I’ll instead respond, then, within the context of Leviticus itself.

The entire argument for claiming that male homosexual sex is not entirely condemned by the Leviticus verses rests upon the fact that Chaper 18, which almost entirely consists of alisting of sexual transgressions (and likewise Chapter 20, which is similar) also includes an injunction against sacrificing a child to Moloch, and as such, the verse relating to homosexuality can be read as only condemning that homosexual sex related to idol-worship.

Now, does this mean that you think the following Biblical prohibitions are also related to only idol-worship applications:

[ul]
[li]Sex with one’s mother[/li][li]Sex with one’s father’s wife[/li][li]Sex with one’s sister[/li][li]Sex with one’s granddaughter (Talmus says daughter is implied in that verse as well)[/li][li]Sex with one’s step-sister[/li][li]Sex with one’s aunt[/li][li]Sex with one’s sister-in-law[/li][li]Sex with one’s daughter-in-law[/li][li]Sex with a woman and her daugher or granddaughter[/li][li]Sex with two sisters[/li][li]Sex with a menstruating woman[/li][li]Sex with another man’s wife[/li][li]Sex with an animal[/li][/ul]

If you do not believe this to be the case, then singling out homosexuality as the one which there is some form of blanket permission is absurd.

It means that by supporting David’s legitimacy as future king over his own eventual inheritance of the throne (which would be the effect of his thwarting Saul’s attempts to kill David) Jonathan is shaming (a more accurate translation of the word translated by your source as “confusion”) himself and his mother (because he thus casts doubt on his legitimacy to inherit the throne…obviously, Saul is not likely to be allowing himself to bear the blame for his family’s loss of legitimacy, though that is in fact the case).

Wept exceedingly. They were sad at their forced parting.

This is a bit of a supposition itself. Being the first annointed King and all, Saul had no reason to believe that it would be a hereditary position rather than Samuel annointing a new King when the time came.

Homebrew:

Not so, the Bible definitely indicated that when the Israelites would set up a king, it should be a hereditary position. Deuteronomy 17:20 - “Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.” So he had every reason to expect that.

Reasonable approach, Chaim. So you see this as Saul’s erroneous but Scripturally founded presumption that the kingdom would remain in his house, not a reference to Jonathan’s activities with David but rather with Jonathan having exalted David to the point where he (David) was a threat to his own (Jonathan’s) heirship to the throne, out of love for him?

What’s the contextual sense of “…and unto the confusion of thy mother’s nakedness” in Saul’s comment, then? It certainly sounds like Jonathan is being accused of a sexual sin, given Israelite ways of expressing oneself, to me as a reader vaguely familiar with them.

Polycarp:

The simple answer is that Jonathan, by casting aspersions on his destiny to inherit the throne, he is casting himself as not a legitimate heir. This could be due to some shame of Jonathan’s own, or due to some shame of his mother, that she may not have been proper for the king to marry in the first place (and therefore her descendants would not inherit).

(Of course, it was Saul’s own actions in not executing the Amalekite king - and more so, in attempting to justify it to Samuel - that caused G-d to remove the rulership from his house and have Samuel annoint David to replace him.)

My Torah Anthology on I Samuel offers a more complex and very clever expansion of the above, but I don’t know if you’d want me to go into that here.

In addition to the verse in Deut. that Chaim cited, if you look at 1 Samuel 20:31, the next verse, Saul tells Jonathan, “As long as the son of Jesse lives, neither you or your kingdom will be established. Bring him to me, he must die.”

It doesn’t follow that they were wise to gloss over it so flippantly! Actually, they were foolish to do so. Over and over again I’ve come across legitimate but narrow-minded Greek scholars who insist that pais could only have meant “son” or “boy”, but all of these show a glaring lack of common sense in these absurdly absolutist assertions. For they are implicitly assuming as fact that Greeks never used idiom, or slang! What nonsense!

Wiser scholars contend that pais was common slang for the “body boy” or “catamite slave” that higher ranking Roman soldiers routinely took with them to foreign postings. The pais was used to carry the centurion’s weapons and armor, cook meals, and provide homosexual pleasure and release. We even have something of a parallel still today in gay culture: one often hears talk of daddies and their sons.

Greek scholar K.J. Dover, for but one example, in Greek Homosexuality notes that the junior/passive partner of a homosexual liaison is by definition called a pais

Thus, we see in Matthew 8:5-13 that Jesus praised a man who was having homosexual sex with a “body boy” as having A FAITH GREATER THAN ALL ISRAEL. This man was praised higher than anyone else in the entire New Testament (save Jesus himself). How could Jesus have considered homosexuality a sin?

Here is what history and educated linguistics tell us:

(1) That Roman centurions of sufficient rank (and it is clear from the passage in Matthew that the centurion in question was of such a rank since he reports that he was a giver of orders) when posted abroad were sanctioned by Rome to take a young male servant with them at Rome’s expense as a sort of factotum, majordomo, arms carrier, and sexual “outlet” all rolled into one. The sexual nature of this situation was considered to be quite reasonable and even necessary in that the centurions were forced to leave their wives or other sexual-love interests at home, fraternizing with the foreigners was generally frowned on, and homosexual relationships between members of the same social class were strongly discouraged. We know most such officers took advantage of this – certainly including the majority primary heterosexuals and that the homosexual nature of this relationship was extremely common and well-known, but it is an open question as to how often this homosexual relationship was accompanied by the obviously deep emotional love between the centurion and his “boy-servant” in “Matthew’s” story.

(2) That these “boy-servants” "or “body boys” were probably not children. We must assume they were young men since a prepubescent child or even a young teenager would be incapable of performing the required duties, which often required significant physical strength.

(3) That it was a truism among Romans that the gender of a man’s favorite servants revealed his “sexual preference” (if you will allow me that anachronism).

(4) Most importantly, we also know from highly respected authorities on the Greco-Roman world such as Dover and others that the idiomatic, vernacular term for the centurion’s junior homosexual partner/servant was pais.

Therefore, because of the unlimited praise that Jesus bestows on the Centurion for his faith in Jesus and his love of his young male lover, it follows that Jesus did not condemn homosexuality in the least.

There’s no evidence of Jesus praising the Centurion for his love of the “boy”. Jesus was astonished at the faith of a foreigner, someone who wasn’t even from Israel.

In Luke’s version, though, the Centurion’s love of Israel is mentioned, and specifically the fact that he had built a synagogue.

I think you’re reaching there. You start by saying that “pais” can be used to refer to a male servant used sexually, and then conclude by saying that proves that Jesus didn’t condemn homosexuality. However, you haven’t shown that pais has to be used to refer to the passive partner of a homosexual relationship, or even that

considering that homosexuality was a capital crime in the Roman army at that time. I think it’s fair to say that we don’t know what Jesus’s opinion of homosexuality was…either he never expressed an opinion, or it wasn’t preserved.

There’s no “reaching”. To the extent that “homosexuality was a capital crime in the Roman army at that time”, that only referred to homosexuality between men or women of the same social class; having homosexual relations with those of a lower social class, such as with one’s pais, was entirely legal and very common.

As for inferring Jesus’ opinion of homosexuality, we can quite justifiably adduce from the fact that he gave his highest praise ever to the controlling member of a homosexual relationship that, at the very least, Jesus didn’t condemn homosexuality. True, we can’t conclude that he necessarily approved of it, but we can certainly know that he didn’t condemn it or else he would have linked his curing of the pais with a promise that they “sin no more”, or at least Jesus wouldn’t have implied that this homosexual Centurion wasn’t on a par with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

QED

If you deny the compelling logic there, you’re just fooling yourself.

I say you’re reaching because you see the word pais and say that it can be used in a homosexual relationship, and then from that say that that shows that a homosexual relationship did exist. But pais can also be used in a nonsexual context, to mean “boy” or “servant”. So, in Acts, for example, it’s used to refer to Jesus, as the servant of God. You wouldn’t suggest in that case that Jesus was being referred to as the passive homosexual partner of God, would you?

Likewise, in Matthew, it’s used to refer to the children of Bethlehem that Herod slew, with the meaning “boys”. Various forms of the word are used a bunch of times in the Christian bible, and only in the case of the Centurion, is it possible there’s a homosexual context. But it’s also possible there isn’t. Slaveowners could develop strong, non-sexual relationships back then with their slaves, to the extent of being concerned for their well being or if they were sick. The most famous that comes to mind is that between Cicero and his slave Tiro. So, it’s just as possible that the person Jesus healed was just the Centurion’s slave, and no sexual relationship existed.

You’re the one reaching, my friend, and you’re reaching desperately far to defend your own personal thesis. The primary – arguably the only – meaning of the word pais in the context of a ranking Centurion’s boy is that of a sexual boy servant. That’s what the word meant by default in that context. There were plenty of much more apt words than pais to refer to a non-sexual slave or servant (such as doulos) that the author of Matthew eschewed. The author of Luke chickened out, but it’s clear that a vital element of the story in Matthew is based on the scandal, and it was important to Matthew that Jesus be seen to be completely above such scandals.

We all know what was going on. You’re in denial, sir.

I’m not in denial. I don’t particularly care what Jesus thought about homosexuality. He lived 2000 years ago in a culture with values extremely different than my own, and his opinions aren’t binding on me. All I’m saying is that the passage can be read in a non-sexual context (and has, traditionally, been read that way).

As a man who has been strongly fighting in behalf of gay rights for quite a long time now, and the guy who brought the issue up in this thread in the first place, I have to say that, no, it’s not self-evident that that is the case. The “scandal” in Matthew is that the Messiah, who was understood to be the leader of the Jews, would deal in that manner with a Gentile – and not just any Gentile, but an army leader of the occupying power. Jesus dealing as He did with that centurion would be about equivalent to a claimed Messiah in the Warsaw ghetto of 1940 according the same attitude towards an SS Sturmbahnfuhrer coming to ask something of him.

It’s a possible explanation – but works completely off the presumption that that particular connotation of pais and doulos is what’s being implied – and that’s a rather far-out presumption to make.

However, it’s my opinion that that is much how Jesus would have dealt with a gay man coming to see Him in faith. He tended to judge alleged sexual sins much less harshly than the sins of those who took it on themelves to judge the behavior of others – something most Christians find it very hard to perceive, for some reason.

I think one of the most important truths of the Bible is that people look at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart (1 Samuel 16:7). I believe that part of growing to be like Jesus involves appreciating this and disciplining oneself not to judge on appearances. If one gets into a habit of not doing this, then it becomes easier to distinguish the good from the not good (Hebrews 5:14).