I concur with this wholeheartedly, except that we do know it. See this post.
Pagans who love; Christians who love; Atheists who love — we all are One. There is no pissing contest among us.
Danielinthewolvesden:
This is a mistake. In Hebrew, many words that pertain to ownership or lordship are expressed in a plural form, even when clearly referring to a single person.
Phil_15:
Jesus’ story was called a parable. Meaning it was an illustration to show a point, not to be taken literally. If you pick this parable, who was the king who handed out talents, when was the last time someone move a literal mountain because of thier faith, etc. Nicodemus took his words literally when Jesus said someone must be “born again” and asked how do you go back to the mother’s womb. Yet Christianity throughout the ages has taken this parable literaly. I believe recently there has been talk among some Christian leaders (including the Pope) that a literal, eternal, firey, torturous hell is not the case.
Wow. I remember when I thought this, too. I had a two-week fight with Jodi about it. I probably owe her an apology.
If Christianity, and the philosophy it contains, means anything at all, then this statement couldn’t be less true.
Phil is right. Calling myself a cabbage plant doesn’t make me one.
humans and cabbages are obviously different
christians, pagans and atheists all look alike
chriatians can spend their time argueing among themselves about who is and is not a christian. it is not important to ME.
however there was a christian theologian, Origen, 183ad - 254ad, before constantine made christianity the religion of rome. he believed in and taught reincarnation. his ideas were declared anathema in 553ad at the behest of Justinian.
http://www.near-death.com/origen.html
many christians believe that people who are not christian go to hell. a psychologist would say that a person would very probably believe whatever religion he/she was raised in. this is called the socialization process. an all knowing God has to know as much about social-psychology as we do. so wouldn’t God be condemning people to hell by allowing them to be born to hindu parents. whatever method God uses to run the universe must take social-psychology into account. HELL IS ILLOGICAL!
http://www.childpastlives.org/oldsouls.htm
a lot of so called scholarship is reading the arguments of people that have been dead for hundreds of years and didn’t know any more about what they were talking about than people do now. how long did people study things that aristotle got wrong?
SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT ARE FOR PEOPLE WITH SUSHI FOR BRAINS.
yeah i’m an a$$hole, but the internet is an amusing place to be an a$$hole. ROFL! chill out, some of you are TOO serious.
Dal Timgarby the way
does that mean that calling Europe a continent doesn’t make it one? it isn’t surrounded by water. it is not connected to asia by an isthmus.
i’ve argued with people on the internet about that to.
that’s the trouble with thinking with words instead of with concepts. supposed to accept someone elses stupid definition. LOL!
Dal Timgar
At the cost of violating Rule #5 (DNFTT), I do have to comment:
Whatever else Dal is posting, he is doing an outstanding job of making his case here! 
Just out of curiousity, what is your royalty rate per copy of Old Souls?
not even a penny
are there any books that claim “scientific evidence” of hell.
suppose i were to commit a murder. they would die sooner or later anyway so suppose this person would have lived 80 more years. in effect i have just taken away some time. assume i do it in such a way that the police can’t figure out who did it.
i proceed to live to a ripe old age, then die and confront st. peter. he points out my minor murder infraction, snaps his fingers and 2 devils come in, drag me off to hell and toss me in the boiling lead juccuzi. without so much as a string bikini.
so i boil away for 1000 years, then another 1000 years and another and another… 50,000 years in the jucuzzi and i’m starting to get bored. so i only took 80 and 50,000 is only the beginning.
i’m supposed to believe a God that can create everything from silicon atoms to colliding galaxies can’t come up with a more interesting and productive way to run the metaphysical universe than HELL? sorry, can’t buy it.
HELL IS ILLOGICAL
GOD CANNOT BE STUPID
that is why on another thread i said God’s personality was like:
A VULCAN FEMALE WITH A SENSE OF HUMOR
LOL
Dal Timgar
p.s. i am neither a trekker nor a trekkie.
The hell you describe is only one version of the Christian hell. Not all Christians think that your description defines hell, for one reason because the notion of an all loving god and an eternal place of torture do not coincide.
I think the general idea of hell, whether it be a Judaic view or a Christian view, is that the life you live here has repercusions that may escape you in this life, but not in the next.
There are different concepts within the same belief system, not everything is cut and dry, black and white. And this is not limited to hell (in which there are various “theories”, none of which can be backed by scientific evidence. To suggest that is perposterous.) For example, pentecostals believe that the charims (gifts of the Spirit) as described in 1 Corinthians are still active today. Others agree with the early church leaders that the ceased with the death of the apostles. Others aren’t sure, and don’t want to pigeon-hole the power of God. Now this is all within Christianity. You are “discussing” things that you yourself said have no importance to you. So just because you don’t care, or understand or care to understand that not all Christians believe the same thing (this goes for Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and . . .), what makes you think that others care to discuss it with you then? If you don’t care, then you are either posting to see your name on the left side of the screen or just purposely trying to piss people off. It seems both are working.
As for the idea of reincarnation, I believe there is a concept of reincarnation in Judaism, so for the early church leaders to discuss it only seems logical.
What is illogical is putting LOL into almost every damn post. No wait, that isn’t illogical, it’s just really annoying. At least to me it is. :rolleyes:
I am unaware of any references in the bible that support the theoy of reincarnation and would appreciate any who could point them out. However, in Heb 9:27 Paul states as follows:
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, NIV
Note the die once. Of the Christian denominations I am aware they all refute the concept of multiple lives.
To ElGuapo:
My understanding/belief of hell is that God never intended for man to occupy it(studies by some scholars suggest that hell was solely intended for satan and the 1/3 of the rebellious hosts that were cast out of heaven with him). That condition was brought about by man’s transgression alone… his exercising free will in disobeying. However, it was the act of a loving God to provide a way out through the the sacrifice of Christ. It still remains man’s choice, not God’s.
Izzy: we can argue the possible polytheistic influences on early Judaism later, but note what I really said; “elohim=polytheism” in Judaism- just as much as “Trinity = polytheism” in Christianity. “Abraham = human sacrifice”, just as much as “JC dying for our sins = human sacrifice”. That is- NOT AT ALL. A god with several aspects is not in any way like poytheism, someone giving up their physical life to save others is nothing like killing someone to placate a god.
Note that some of you are defing hell as illogical, because you have no idea what hell is, or what the purpose of it is. You have read a few anti-christian “tracts’, heard a few TV preacher sermons on everlasting fire, and seen a few movies.
Now, you’re an 'expert” on Hell, and how illogical it is. :rolleyes:
Well, I do not presume to speak for any other Christian sects, but i will for mine. Hell is where you go to repent the sins you did not repent in mortal life. It would only be “forever” if you refused to repent, and then not really, only until the 2nd coming. The horrible punishments are reserved mainly for those who lead or forced others to sin, ie Hitler (or the King of Assyria), but all can repent, if they do so truly. My personal guess is that it would take most folks just a short time to truly repent. And we do not condemn pagans or Jews or other religions to our Hell, just those who know Him, sin and do not repent. However, it is quite possible that those who are evil will be punished in another Hell. (Reincarnation is a “maybe” for those who have died without the ability to knowingly sin or have faith, ie children. This is debated.)
So, how is this Hell “illogical”? You knowingly and wilfully hurt another human ( murder?), and refuse to be sorry for that. So, like “children”, you are sent to a dark, gloomy, joyless & boring place, and given a “time-out” until you say you are sorry, and REALLY mean it. Over in the basement you can see what happens to those who are truly evil, which should make you realize the error of your ways all the faster. Kinda sounds like a Father punishing his children, who He truly loves, doesn’t it?
Now you’re going to say, “but that’s NOT the ‘standard’ Hell!!” So, who says your odd idea of Hell is the ‘standard’?
Daniel: But elohim DOESN’T equal polythiesm. If I have a pair of scissors, I must have two set of them? Because pair is a plural word and scissors is clearly plural, right? Of course not. I’ve got pants on, but not two of them, just one pair on. We know the English language, and this makes sense to us. So if people who speak and understand Hebrew say tht elohim, while is in a plural form (just as scissors and pants) but is a singular noun, I’ll take their word for it.
I know I’m not an expert on anything, let alone theology. And I’ve never even seen any anti-Christian tracts. In fact, I know a heck of a lot more about Christianity than any other religion. Twenty years of believing and 6 years of Christian schooling will do that to you. But an expert, no. I heard no one make such a claim either.
Your view of Hell seems very close to the Jewish ideas that I have researched and been told, and actually makes sense. If I recall correctly (big if!) is that you are in the Celtic Christian tradition. I don’t know all that much about that particular denomination, but from other posts and explanations, I know I almost looked into it (that is a compliment, I’ve got some for Polycarp and cmkeller as well). Especially while I was in Ireland not so long ago. But anyway, I DO know about other denominations definition. Walk into anyone of these churches (or sample websites) and ask if Hell is everlasting punishment for non-believers: Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Baptist. That covers a big portion of Christianity, all of which I know I’ve attended or been schooled in. They would call your definition soft and unsupported scripturally, and put IT into the odd category. However, I think we would both agree that an all loving God would be out of character with eternal punishment even after repentance. Hence, illogical given his perceived nature.
Phil_15: You won’t find any references to reincarnation in the Christian Bible either. And from my understanding the Jewish concept of reincarnation is scetchy. You would have to look into other Jewish texts to find that. But it is a conceptr out there in Judaism.
Speaking of things not found in the bible, Satan rebelling against God and being cast out of heaven won’t be found either. The scripture that you will undoubted quote from Isaiah refers to the King of Babylon, not the angel Satan. The king is compared to Venus, the morning star, or Lucifer in the Latin, and when taken in context, was a prophesy as well as a taunt. As for the 1/3 of heaven? That is from Revelation, isn’t it? I don’t know how anyone can take Revelation literally. Heck, Martin Luther almost left it out when he translated the Bible into German, but put it it anyway.
ElG: you are NOT listening. I said “elohim” is as much a proof of Judaism being polythesic as the Trinity is for Christianity being polytheistic, that is NOT AT ALL. OK? Again, “elohim” is NOT evidence of polythesism. Nor is the Trinity.
And, yes, I have HEARD that other Christian sects have a different view of Hell, in fact I know that their view is different from mine (ie, as you thought, the Celtic Christian Church). But until one of them comes here and posts THEIR view on Hell, I will not say it is “illogical”, as I could not be sure that what I THOUGHT their views were, were actually their views. You are quite possibly correct, but I don’t want to join in attacks on a “straw man”.
I was listening, I just didn’t hear you. That and I didn’t quite understand your point.
I am so used to certain arguements (many I’ve made with myself), I tend to read something and hear another. I think we are talking about perspectives. From the Christian perspective, the trinity is not polythiestic. Explanations that I have heard is comparisons with the shamrock, but my favorite is water. To a chemist, H2O is water, in vapor form is it still H2O, as is the liquid and solid form. While they all have different properties in their different phases, they are still H2O. However, from the Judaic perspective, that is still polythiestic, no matter how you explain it. I don’t have to be Jewish to state that as their view.
I didn’t think anyone was attacking anything in particular, I know I bring up things I’ve been exposed to or HEARD in order to either better understand it or to get a different perspective entirely. But I can’t do that until what I’ve HEARD or in some cases believed is made known. How else can enlightenment be reached if not through communication. I’m too impatient to wish someone would comment on a thought or belief I’ve been exposed to. I’d rather throw it out, have it commented on or be corrected.
And, if thier publications state that Hell is eternal, than I will assume that is their view as well. If the Pope says that hell is eternal and defines it, than I feel safe in saying that Catholics believe in an eternal hell. While not everyone tows the party line, I don’t think it’s over presumptious to say it is their view until corrected otherwise. I don’t think that is attacking straw men either.
on a scale of 1 to 10 i rate religion at about 3 on the serious scale. if some people want to rate it a 9 or a 10 that is their decision, i am under no obligation to get bent out of shape about it.
i know different versions of christianity have different versions of hell, to me that just means none of them KNOW what they are talking about.
i’m saying God must run a meta-physical universe that makes sense. the physical universe is supposedly a manifestation of God and makes sense. complicated but sensible. so shouldn’t the meta-physical universe be the same way. it has to take into account social-psychology. god must know children are brainwashed into adopting different religions. regardless of what hell is like what is accomplished by it being eternal?
the trouble i find with most BELIEVERS is they don’t want to input any information that doesn’t correspond to their beliefs. i told you about OLD SOULS by Tom Shroder, if you reject it out of hand why should i be concerned that you’re upset about my saying that HELL IS ILLOGICAL. get the Vulcan science academy to sue me. LOL!
Dal Timgar
p.s. chill out and lighten up. how is LOL worse than a smiley face?
Well, a smilie, despicable as one is, indicates that the poster was attempting humor in the preceding statement and meant no offense.
LOL when used by the reader of a post indicates an appreciation of the post just read.
LOL when used by a poster, himself, would seem to indicate that the poster found his own thought so brilliant that he was forced to laugh out loud at his own wit.
Of course, if the only one at a party who is laughing is the one telling the jokes, it usually indicates a bit of discontinuity between reality and perception.
OK, first things first. My understanding of heaven and hell is that heaven is a state of being in full relationship with God, while hell is the state of being completely seperated from God. The new testament always seems to me to speak of hell in terms of an end, so my own idea is of someone who has rejected God all of their life being aware, momentarily, of what they are rejecting, in the instant that Gods truly leaves them alone. A concept gathered largely be reading C.S.Lewis, who is one of the clearest thinkers on the subject of philosophy that I have ever read. How that relates to the difference between Christians and Jews, theologically speaking, is as follows. The Bible, old and new testament, would seem to be concerned mainly with the revelation that God wishes to be in relationship with Man. God is constantly trying to say things that men are not willing to hear. For example, God says in Exodus, and Genisis, that He wishes to create and nation of priests, yet the Iraelites constantly back off and ask Moses to deal with God for them. As a result only one of the tribes is dedicated to priesthood. The bible seems to be one long history of humans backing off from what God has to offer.
I would also point out that the Bible teaches that it is because of Jesus death on the cross, that men and women can have a relationship with God. Jesus is given the right by that act to accept or reject whoever He wishes. What He does guarantee is that those who accept His Lordship (I think thats the word) will be accepted. Not the best explanation, but what the hell, I’m not a trained theologian.