Hell. Why is it described as, well, hell?

[crypto]

I figured this would turn into a theology debate, and since there is no known answer, I thought this was the best forum for this. However, if not, mods please feel free to move.
What is Hell? And, is it similar in all religions/cultures that have a concept of Heaven?

As I understand the idea of Hell, it is where sinners go. Fire, heat, bad things happening to you. For eternity. A miserable destination that attempts to keep those alive on the straight and narrow so they don’t end up going to Hell when life ends. Your soul must go some place, and if you don’t get into Heaven, Hell is where you are headed.

Now, Hell is run by Satan. The Devil. Angel of Darkness. Antichrist. Beelzebub. Lucifer. Mephistopheles. Prince of Darkness. THAT guy. So, if run by Satan, why would it necessarily be a bad place for an eternal destination?

If you believe in God and Satan, then wouldn’t it be, of a practical matter, that Hell would be made as pleasant as possible for sinners by the landlord? After all, you would be one of “his”. Someone who did not live a good life, who did horrible things to other people, who committed sins (or ate a hot dog on Friday). It would seem to me that Satan would welcome sinners with open arms and not punish those that would be sent to Hell.

Unless, of course, God controls Hell. In which case, the idea of Hell being a bad place to go makes perfect sense. I would not want my soul to be damned to Hell if God controls Hell. Punishment would be severe. But as I understand it, Satan controls Hell, which makes eternal punishment a puzzlement. In effect, Satan would be doing God’s work. Why would Satan do that?

What is the explanation for this seemingly obvious flaw in the idea of Heaven and Hell?

[AClockworkMelon]

Pretend you’re inventing a religion. It doesn’t make sense to tell your followers that if they don’t behave according to your doctrine that they’ll go to a pleasant place. It makes sense to tell your followers that they’ll be horribly punished if they don’t do as they’re told.

As for why Satan would treat his bros so horribly, it’s because Christians believe him to be the utter epitome of evil. He will cause as much pain and torment as he can to everyone, all the time.

I prefer to look at Big S in a more sympathetic light: He’s a loyal agent of God doing as he’s told. I believe that’s how them Jews see him.

[Captain_Amazing]

In this world, life can be pretty crappy. People can do all sorts of evil, nasty things, and get away with it. Not only do they get away with it, they get rewarded for it.

As you can imagine, this bothers a lot of people, because they have a sense of justice. They want good to be rewarded and evil to be punished.

[crypto]

@Captain_Amazing

In this world, life can be pretty crappy. People can do all sorts of evil, nasty things, and get away with it. Not only do they get away with it, they get rewarded for it.

As you can imagine, this bothers a lot of people, because they have a sense of justice. They want good to be rewarded and evil to be punished.

I agree with this. But it would make more sense to me if Satan didn’t exist at all, and God ran the whole show. Having Satan as the ruler of Hell and all that’s evil makes the description of Hell inconsistent with what Satan would do if it were indeed his realm.

@AClockworkMelon

I prefer to look at Big S in a more sympathetic light: He’s a loyal agent of God doing as he’s told. I believe that’s how them Jews see him.

Really? The Jews think Satan is an agent of God? I’ve never heard that one. I thought Satan was a fallen angel??

[AClockworkMelon]

@Stink Fish Pot

Really? The Jews think Satan is an agent of God? I’ve never heard that one. I thought Satan was a fallen angel??

Damn it. I was hoping I wouldn’t have to get off my ass and back up my claims with a cite.

Fine, I’ll do it.

But I’m hoping a Jew comes into the thread first.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

From Gibbon’s The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire:

His spirit, after some previous expiation, might have been permitted to mingle with the benefactors of mankind if [according to Pope Gregory I] an Italian hermit had not been witness in a vision to the damnation of Theodoric, whose soul was plunged by the ministers of divine vengeance into the volcano of Lipari, one of the flaming mouths of the infernal world.

[Simplicio]

I think Christian tradition was that Satan was in Hell partially for his own punishment*. So even though he runs the place, I don’t think he has the option to make it a nice place, its intrinsic to Hell that being there sucks, even for Satan and the other fallen angels. Thats how its depicted in Paradise Lost, anyways.

[AClockworkMelon]

Jewish Encyclopedia

@The Jewish Encyclopedia

He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor … Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity

Emphasis mine.

Infallible Wikipedia

@Wiki

In the book of Job (Iyov), ha-satan (“the accuser”) is the title of an angel submitted to God. In Judaism ha-satan does not make evil, rather points out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind.

Emphasis mine.

You’ll never hear a Jew talk about Satan like a Christian.

[even_sven]

I believe the Christian version of hell is not particularly universal. Many cultures- for example, the ancient Greeks- believe in a more sedate underworld that is more gloomy than painful. In many religions hell (or, perhaps more accurately, the underworld) is not reserved for bad people…pretty much everyone ends up there unless they are exceptional. In religions that believe in reincarnation, hell is often a temporary place.

Wikipedia has a good article on Hell that goes into further detail.

I find the story of Yama quite interesting. This Lord of the Underworld became popular Hindu India and spread via Buddhism all the way to Japan. So basically you have this one concept of Hell that has spread across multiple religions and a huge area. Furthermore, there is speculation that Yama’s origins are even further to the west.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Stink Fish Pot

I agree with this. But it would make more sense to me if Satan didn’t exist at all, and God ran the whole show. Having Satan as the ruler of Hell and all that’s evil makes the description of Hell inconsistent with what Satan would do if it were indeed his realm.

There are two ways that Christianity handles this. In one, Satan isn’t the ruler of hell. He’s a prisoner in hell, just like everybody else.

In the other, Satan is just evil. He doesn’t want to make hell pleasant for its denizens, because Satan doesn’t want to make anything pleasant for anyone. He enjoys inflicting suffering and pain on mankind, including the people of Hell.

[AClockworkMelon]

@Captain_Amazing

There are two ways that Christianity handles this. In one, Satan isn’t the ruler of hell. He’s a prisoner in hell, just like everybody else.

In the other, Satan is just evil. He doesn’t want to make hell pleasant for its denizens, because Satan doesn’t want to make anything pleasant for anyone. He enjoys inflicting suffering and pain on mankind, including the people of Hell.

Isn’t Satan also described as the God of Earth? That would make Earth the Hell that we’re all trying to find salvation from.

[Koxinga]

@Stink Fish Pot

If you believe in God and Satan, then wouldn’t it be, of a practical matter, that Hell would be made as pleasant as possible for sinners by the landlord? After all, you would be one of “his”. Someone who did not live a good life, who did horrible things to other people, who committed sins (or ate a hot dog on Friday). It would seem to me that Satan would welcome sinners with open arms and not punish those that would be sent to Hell.

Unless he considers you to be one of his . . . and finger-lickin’ good.

[Koxinga]

Also . . . I think Kevin Smith had an interesting interpretation . . .

[even_sven]

Another thing to think about…

The “eternal suffering” version of hell is pretty much a Christianity/Islam thing. Not coincidently, these are the only two major exclusive religions.

By exclusive, I mean that they purport to have the sole claim on truth and salvation, and that their rules apply to everyone on the planet whether they believe or not. This is actually quite rare in religions. Many religions are perfectly happy being a tribal religion that only applies to that specific group (like Judaism) or a “many paths to one destination” thing like you’d find in Buddhism.

It seems to me that Christianity and Islam developed this version of hell because they have a theological reason to encourage people to convert (whereas many religions actually discourage converts.) A spectacularly bad hell is one pretty effective way to do that.

[Der_Trihs]

It’s because the mythology was crafted for the purpose of promoting the religion, excusing ruthless behavior and controlling people. As people have described. It’s not supposed to be analyzed from a “but does this make sense” perspective.

@Stink Fish Pot

Now, Hell is run by Satan. The Devil. Angel of Darkness. Antichrist. Beelzebub. Lucifer. Mephistopheles. Prince of Darkness. THAT guy. So, if run by Satan, why would it necessarily be a bad place for an eternal destination?

If you believe in God and Satan, then wouldn’t it be, of a practical matter, that Hell would be made as pleasant as possible for sinners by the landlord? After all, you would be one of “his”. Someone who did not live a good life, who did horrible things to other people, who committed sins (or ate a hot dog on Friday). It would seem to me that Satan would welcome sinners with open arms and not punish those that would be sent to Hell.

See, that’s better worldbuilding for a game or piece of fiction. Ask someone on a board like this one “well, what would YOU do if you were in charge of Hell” and that’s the kind of answer you’d get. And in fact quite a few works of fiction have a Satan and a Hell which make more sense than the classic one. I mean, think about it. A really effective Lord-of-Evil Satan would do better with a line like “Do x, y, and z horrible things in my name and you’ll dwell in the lap of luxury in the afterlife, and get to lord over and abuse those saps who did evil freelance as a bonus!”

“Do what I say and burn forever” is a really rotten sales pitch.

Satan’s behavior as normally described either make little sense or has implications the people who claim to believe it probably wouldn’t like. He and his followers rebelled against an omnipotent (by definition hopelessly), then he spends his time corrupting and torturing a completely different group of people in the service of the very enemy he rebelled against. Is he crazy? Then he’s not evil. Is God making Satan act like that? Then God’s evil and Satan isn’t since he’s compelled.

[raindog]

The only flaw is the centuries old tradition of perverting the original use of the [words now rendered as] hell in the bible so that Christianity now views hell entirely inconsistent with how the Jews saw it.

There is no burning hell, and neither the Jews, Christian Jews, Jesus, his apostles or Christian Greeks believed in one.

The most common use of the word most simply means the common grave; non-sentient death. (although rendered in interlinears in various forms)

Another use of the word used by Jesus referred to destruction; a death from which there was no redemption or resurrection. The prior death/hell had a hope of resurrection/ redemption and this hell (often referred to as “gehenna” and a couple other spelling variations) represented those who were resurrected and judged adversely; adversely enough that their destruction was irrevocable/ permanent.

In any event, there is no burning hell in the bible, and the popular notion of hell is a product of literature and not consistent with how the Jews/Christians saw it.

[athelas]

@AClockworkMelon

Isn’t Satan also described as the God of Earth? That would make Earth the Hell that we’re all trying to find salvation from.

That would be taking things a bit too far. Satan has significant influence on Earth, and for the moment he is more overtly powerful, but that doesn’t mean Earth is Hell. CS Lewis played with the analogy of Earth to Vichy France, where the dominant politics and culture are those of the Enemy, while the good guys bide their time and send coded messages and hidden assistance to those who are able and willing to receive it.

[Captain_Amazing]

@raindog

In any event, there is no burning hell in the bible, and the popular notion of hell is a product of literature and not consistent with how the Jews/Christians saw it.

There is by the time the Book of Revelation is written, because it has the devil, the “beast”, the “false prophet”, all those who received “the mark of the beast”, those who “worshiped his image”, “whosoever was not found written in the book of life”, and “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars” burning in a lake of fire forever.

You also find references in the gospels of an unquenchible fire, where the wicked go (Mark 9), a “darkness, where there is wailing and gashing of teeth” (Matthew 22), and there’s the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Like 16, where the rich man for whatever reason, was “in torment”, and “in agony in the fire”.

So there seems to be at least some concept of punishment for the wicked after death in early Christianity.

[raindog]

@Captain_Amazing

There is by the time the Book of Revelation is written, because it has the devil, the “beast”, the “false prophet”, all those who received “the mark of the beast”, those who “worshiped his image”, “whosoever was not found written in the book of life”, and “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars” burning in a lake of fire forever.

You also find references in the gospels of an unquenchible fire, where the wicked go (Mark 9), a “darkness, where there is wailing and gashing of teeth” (Matthew 22), and there’s the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Like 16, where the rich man for whatever reason, was “in torment”, and “in agony in the fire”.

So there seems to be at least some concept of punishment for the wicked after death in early Christianity.

It’s late and I have no time yet this evening to go into this in detail. But if you’re interested we can go into each of these texts (including historical and the original source language) and I think you’ll find that there is no biblical support for a burning hell.

[devilsknew]

Most of the modern conceptions of hell are Pagan. Ya see, ya got a lot of Pagan Syncretists folded into Christianity way back from Classical Roman and Greek Times. It’s a med cult hades delapidation.