I’m a newbie to GD, but I would like to discuss an issue that I’m truly confused about. First, I have to mention that I’m agnostic and that I’m not well versed in this issue at all, so please be kind.
The biggest issue in Christianity is that Jesus died for our sins. He was the son of God (ignoring all that weird (to me) God/Jesus/Holy Spirit trinity thing).
So, what was the big deal about him dying and saving humanity when he was the son of God and knew there was a God when he died for our sins. He knew he was eventually going to Heaven. Right? I think it would be a whole different deal if he didn’t know he was the son of God, wasn’t certain there was a God and subsequently heaven/afterlife for him.
I have put this in simple terms because that’s what I need to explain this…simple terms. What’s the big deal about Jesus dying?
Thanks for your help!
[sub] As a disclaimer, I’ll mention that this idea came from reading Anne Rice’s Memnoch the Devil [/sub]
Perhaps another more helpful way to think about it is not that Jesus is just the son of God, but an aspect of God himself (yeah, the trilogy thing you want to avoid).
So, what really happened is that is that God sacrificed Himself TO Himself, to change rules that He Himself made.
Oh wait, actually maybe that doesn’t make it more clear…
Well, it wasn’t supposed to be that easy for Jesus to give up the ghost. He was after all also a man. And it’s not like he was half man, half god ala Hercules; he was 100% of each simultaneously. The math is bit cumbersome, but the concept is more clear that way.
I’m not sure where it comes from, but I remember Sunday school stories recounting a journey that wasn’t as simple as dying for us. Jesus had to sneak into the underworld after death, and steal the keys to the gates of hell. To clarify, I have no idea where this is supported in Christian doctrine, but the Jesus version of Operation Sealion was a favorite of the Sunday-school kiddies.
W. – non-practicing Catholic
Well the raising from the dead thing is not that big of deal to me as it’s my understanding that God can do anything…rasing Jesus from the dead…so what (this is overly simplistic I know)
My question is what was Jesus/God as his own son’s SACRIFICE.
Revtim that just makes it weird
However, I have the same question/dilemma in that instance.
Uh, the entire point behind the Incarnation was that Jesus came to be among us doofey human types as one of us. He didn’t have the knowledge that God (including Him) presumably did of what the outcome was going to be – all He had was faith that God was going to bring Him through the suffering and death OK. Read the accounts of His prayer in the Garden just before His arrest to get the picture of what He went through.
Faith. Exactly the same thing as we’re supposed to have.
Put in that context, does His offering of Himself make a bit more sense?
Never mind the “it takes a blood sacrifice to buy off God’s vengeance on humanity for giving in to the sin that He created them able to commit” routine – that’s a whole separate discussion. Stick to “what did Jesus do, and what did He know when He did it?” for this argument.
Revtim my response was to your trinity thing…not your most recent post…we had a bit of simulpost. I’ve looked at that thread and think that it got a bit off of what my one point is but maybe not…
I’ll read all of it. But I want/need a (as much as anything can with this issue) simple answer…but that may not be possible.
Poly but is that totally clear from reading the bible…din’t he have a stronger suspicion of the possibility that all would be well and all manner of things would be well than a mere mortal? And he at least KNEW there was a God…that’s gotta make you feel a bit better about dying.
BBJ, Can you explain what you mean? I don’t understand what knowing his ultimate destiny has to do with Jesus’ death. Could you perhaps rephrase your concern so I could follow? Thanks. I apologize for being obtuse.
sure ** serenitynow ** I guess in order for me to understand the big deal about Jesus dying for our sins…I guess it’s just not that big of a deal dying and knowing there’s a God, possibly an afterlife and all that stuff if we mortals don’t know all that when we die…
It wasn’t so much the dying that was the sacrifice. It was the suffering a horribly painful death, and even above all that, the total separation from God the father. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” God had to separate from Himself and take on the full punishment for the world’s sins in order to redeem us.
First-good post. Second, I’ve read Memnock the devil and the book takes the standpoint that Jesus knew he was God. The book also took the viewpoint that Satan was actually lobbying for mankind’s enterance into heaven and that’s how he got kicked out (I think). So now God has given him the task to cleanse mankind’s sins, while they are in hell, so that they can then be taken up to heaven.
I think that’s what I remember from the book-it has been a while.
I think a lot of the responses here tie in together, from my perspective. BBJ, you seem to be saying that you don’t understand why Jesus’ dying on the cross was a big deal because Jesus “knew” there was a God and that He’d be going to heaven. You seem to be suggesting that men can’t have this same knowledge. But I think what some of the posts here are trying to say, and what I personally believe, is that people who are Christian and who have Christian faith do know that there is a God and that, because Jesus came to us, was made man, lived a sin-less life as a man, died for our sins, and was resurrected, there is a heaven we will go to as well.
It seems to me that the simplest way to explain what all the “hoopla” about Jesus’ death is about is to say that it demonstrated to us feeble-minded mortals that the prophecies of the Old Testament were being realized in Jesus and that because of his death on the cross our sins would be forgiven through faith in him. It’s really the concept of faith that you probably need to get a handle on to understand the answer to your question, as difficult of a concept as that can be. Faith is one of those things that is just so hard to understand or conceptualize if you don’t have it, and is just so hard to explain or conceptualize if you do have it!
If you’re like most people, you avoid pain whenever and wherever possible. If you’re like me, a mere paper cut is a big deal. How many of us would willingly undergo torture and crucifixion, even if we (somehow) KNEW that it would “only” last a few hours, and that it would be all right in the end?
