I have heard Christians say that there is suffering in the world in part because people have freewill. But there is not supposed to any suffering in Heaven. So is there freewill in Heaven? And if God could create a world (Heaven) where there is freewill and no suffering, why would he create this world where there is suffering if God loves everyone?
(pictures the “Heaven Gun” from American Dad)
-Joe
Based on what I’ve read of C.S. Lewis I think that being directly in the presence of God would not be heaven at all if one were still in a state of rebellion against Him (i.e., sin). Lewis said that when Jesus returns at the end of the world, individuals will have an utterly involuntary reaction of overwhelming love or overwhelming horror.
So you’ve got free will in that ahead of that point you’ve already freely chosen to give up your rebellion against God. If you haven’t given up yet, you’re not in Heaven at all. Hope that makes sense.
Theologiests took a close look at this very idea a very long time go. Discounting the very many who never asked and/or didn’t care to ask, because, while they are still Christians, their opinions do not count in a theological sense, we as Christians believe:
Yes, you do have Free Will in heaven. God is not standing over your shoulder “making” you do the good thing.
The reason he doesn’t have to is because at that time, we will be fully aware of the true nature of good, God, life, the universe, and everything. We will know exactly what we are intended for, why we are meant for it, and how we will do it. By virtue of having arrived at that point, we will be the kind of people who have agreed that our rebellious spirit is innately wrong, and that we recognize and follow God’s supreme, divine, holy and perfect law.
Now, before we go any further, angels are both different and not different from humanity. They are a creature of a completely different order. They are pure/only spirit. I say pure/only because they are NOT innately any more “pure” than we are. Matter is no more or less evil than spirit. Yes, there is Hitler. There is also the Devil. We are clothed in Matter, they are not.
At one point in time, at least some, and quite possibly all, of the angels, were not in fact much more aware of God’s supreme, divine, holy and perfect law. They are greater than we (at least as we are now), and understood more, but against infinity any limited understanding doesn’t go very far. There is no shame in this. Just as with humanity, some angels rebelled against God’s law.
Those who rebelled were cast out, or couldn’t take God’s holy presence, or simply rejected him and everything associated with him, or maybe couldn’t even exist with an infity or three of Him - regardless, they left to a “place” or “state” or something we can’t even comprehend. We call this Hell. We don’t know what it is like, if it is even an “it” in any sense we could know. it may not be. It’s has been described as a place of suffering and anguish, varyingly of physical, mental, and emotional pain, of being eternally destroyed but never actually dying. (The classic "fire motif.) It’s also been described as a place of intense loneliness, of cutting yourself off or being cut off from all other creatures, of infinite isolation. (The “cold” motif.)
Other sources speak of the damned having contact, on some level, with the saved, but neither being able to touch one another. On this look, the gulf between them is something can can reach across, yet they can never truly touch one another. (This is the new tstament conversation between Moses and the sinner.) You might think of this as the simple gap between good and evil; having rejected all good, how can goodness ever give you anything?
Most theologians would probably say that there are constraints on God’s actions - goodness itself. Good is not just whatever God decides. He IS goodness, and like all Good things it sets limits, accepts that others have moral rights, and that sometimes hard choices must be made. He has set limits for Himself, certainly. He claims to right to take our lives, which ewre given by Him. At the same time, he does not take away our choices; though He often offers guidance.
He did not create a world of suffering. We don’t know how literally we can take the earliest books of the Bible. They definitely become more reliable the further along they go, in my view. However, evil enters the world through the sins of the devil - or one of his slaves - and of mankind. We are not totally responsible for out misdeeds; our ancestors handed down polluted organisms. Because of this we often need to restrict our actions even farther than any other good creature, because we cannot (yet) be trusted with the full power and authority.
The (or perhaps an) Eastern Orthodox view, which I pretty much accept, is that Heaven & Hell are both the Presence of God as experienced by those who either love & trust or distrust & despise Him.
Considering that no-one has ever returned from “heaven” and told us what a fantastic place it is, or not, then your question can’t be answered
What chowder said.
I don’t understand how people who sincerely believe in God with a capital G can feel comfortable issuing authoritative pronouncements on his behalf.
That’s why my answer is purely speculative.
Maybe we will be in a state of complete euphoria and will want for nothing. No “will” will exist.
Two and a Half Inches of Fun, you forgot to say “please try to frame your responses within Christian theology, of some kind” - if you don’t say that, it’s an automatic pass for people to just post “Hey, it’s all fiction” and things like that.
Actually, they’ll do that regardless. Carry on.
A little while back I askeda question about whether there was free will in paradise (for Adam and Eve) and whether it would deny God’s omnipotence.
I’m guessing that in heaven one could commit suicide whereas in paradise since the future of the human race is riding on you, if you’re Adam then you would not have the free will to commit suicide.
Just because Adam supposedly didn’t off himself, doesn’t mean he couldn’t have offed himself, so you can’t argue that he lacked free will just because of that. (Though that “knowledge of good and evil” business might throw a wrench into things.)
Regarding the OP, the way I’ve always heard it is that this is accomplished by breaking the notion of free will (and then pretending you havent). That is, you claim that every person is not able to do every kind of action, but rather that each person has a limited set of actions that they are able to perform. That is, some people can kill, and other people can’t. Some people can lie, cheat, and steal, and some people can’t. Amongst the set of things a person can do, they have the ability to choose freely which of those actions to carry out.
This 'limited-set-of-actions" freedom is then called “free will”, and from there one simply can say that those who have the ability to choose evil actions are preemptively filtered from heaven, thus giving you people in heaven in free will who won’t choose to mess up heaven.
As you might guess, I think this is a crock. If you’re restricted to a limited set of actions due to inherent limitations on your phyche or whatever, then you don’t have free will by my understanding of the term. By my definition of the term, any scenario that rules out another satan from emerging in heaven is one that explitly rules out free will.
What about those who are indifferent to Him?
As far as they’re concerned, it’s simply not possible. He is the centerpoint of all creation. It’s literally all about Him. In his infinite goodness, He is rather humble and loving, He would actually rather pay attention to us, but we can never truly ignore Him.
Ultimately, each creature would have to accept or reject Him; ignoring Him is just not something you can do. Metaphor time: it’s sort of like a mighty current. You can choose to swim with it or leave the current, but you can never ignore it. Even if being right where you are is “correct” for you, you have to accept the current and deal with its flow.
if you are a good creature, which chosoes to love and accepts love’s demands upon you, you are accepting Him whether you know it or not. Likewise, no matter how you think you feel about God, if you have not love, you are rejecting Him.
It is my belief that there’s no contradiction between the fact that those in Heaven follow God’s will and have free will. Quite the opposite, in fact. The greater the degree to which a person surrenders their will to God, the more free will they have. To be sure, this will sound paradoxical to many, but so does most wisdom. (I’ve even heard the claim that all true wisdom lies in paradox.)
Immortality is in His nature, not ours.
Free will is what allows us to choose to love. Accepting the Love of God is what creates your ability to pass beyond the world we know, where no one can define God because He doesn’t fit into our perception. In the end, we will have existence where our perception and our being are freely added to His. Using that will without His love is what ties us to the world, which perishes. They are consequences, not punishments and rewards.
I have no doubt that this is heresy to many. That probably includes both religious and nonreligious people.
Tris
Most answers I’ve gotten to this question are along the lines of “yes, there’s free will, you just won’t want to do anything contrary to God’s will”
Sort of how Christians reconcile free will with God’s omniscience. “Yes, you have a choice. God just already knows what choice you’ll make.”
Not sure if you mean to snark, but I don’t think these examples are necessarily contradictions. When you put our finite nature against God’s infinite nature, there are bound to be paradoxes, or things flat out unexplainable.
Of course, if you wish you take this as evidence that God doesn’t exist. :shrug: But others accept this apparent paradox or inexplainability as possibly reflecting the real nature of things.
The biblical assigns God many attributes, but I don’t think humility is one of them.
Exactly. You are humbled by that which is greater than yourself.
I’m humbled by the fact that I used biblical as a noun.