I showed that this is wrong, even if coremelt’s interpretation is correct. If most Christian’s in today’s world don’t believe in the Trinity (I believe they do), a vast number of them do. What makes that sura “obscure”, by the way? Is it to be less accepted by Muslims because of this so called obscurity?
If the website that I linked to isn’t satisfactory, will these do?:
I didn’t cherry pick those sources, btw. I picked those at random from a Google search and skipped sources that you would probably find Islamophobic.
Back to this:
Of course. It’s so clear that Muhammad was against persecuting Christians, he never did it himself and very few Muslims would interpret his words to advocate persecuting Christians, right?:
Christians approach God the Father (HaShem) through Jesus, who is the only intercessor between God and man.
I think Jews definitely worship God the Father, but they don’t know the Son or Holy Spirit. Since there are no lambs being sacrificed on Yom Kippur (that I know of), I’m not quite sure how sin is forgiven these days, considering there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. I do believe God hears them, though, and consider them to be our older brothers. God had a covenant with the Jews long before Christianity and nothing’s ever gonna change that.
Muslims – not sure who they’re worshipping, but it’s definitely not the same god the Jews call HaShem, and spiritually they’re not our brothers. They may be monotheistic but when you get down to it I do not believe the god they call Allah exists.
You quoted the same Sura three different times and are acting like that was from three different sources.
As for wikipedia, it’s a shitty source and you’d be far better off checking out respected academics, but you’ll notice even that the wikipedia article(which implies that Zoroastrians weren’t accorded Dhimmi status) says that Christians were very rarely persecuted under Islamic rule.
Obviously, there was discrimination and occasionally persecution, but that was quite rare.
Christians were certainly treated far better than Jews in Medieval Europe and eons better than Muslims(who were simply exterminated with rare exceptions) in the lands under Christian rule.
In fact, discrimination against Christians in the Middle East has become far more commonplace nowadays even though, with few exceptions, most Middle Eastern countries grant them nominal equality than it was under the Ottoman Empire when they were accorded a lower legal status.
The Hebrew word for sin is chate, an archery term. It literally means “missing the mark.” We have done something wrong and should correct it. It does not mean the same in Christianity. Indeed, many Jews do not believe in an afterlife. Our purpose in life is to make the world a better place.
No, in my last post I quoted the sura four times and I’m not “acting” like they were from different sources, they were. What are you talking about and what is your point? Do you not trust those translations? Does quran.com have it wrong? Are you going to tell me what makes that sura obscure?
Yes, it was quite rare and that’s not my opinion but that of the overwhelming majority of Middle Eastern scholars.
If you don’t believe me, check with Bernard Lewis’ Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Empire: The Functioning of a Plural Society. He is the Cleveland E. Dodge Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton.
Also, you can check out Mark Cohen’s Under Crescent and Cross: Jews in the Middle Ages. Obviously, his book focuses on the treatment of Jews in the Islamic World, but it also deals with the treatment of Christians.
While they were second-class citizens, Christians and Jews were treated vastly better in the medieval Islamic World than Jews and Muslims were treated in medieval Christian World and anyone who denies this is either trying to fool you or they don’t know what they are talking about.
Prior to modern times, whenever Christians moved into previously Muslim land whether Spain, the Balkans or elsewhere, the Muslims were expelled or killed.
In fact, as recently as the 80s, Bulgaria forcibly expelled it’s Turkish population.
I’m acting in good faith and assume this is an issue you’re genuinely interested in.
Moreover, I’m simply pointing out that my statements aren’t that controversial and represent the views of virtually all reputable scholars of the Middle East.
Presumably, you’d rather hear from experts than some rather questionable websites.
Ok, it’s an obscure Sura that has rather obviously been ignored by most Muslims. If not, there’s no way Christians wouldn’t have been expelled, slaughtered, or forcibly converted by Muslims just as pagans traditionally were.
As Ramira said, the Sunnah is clear. Muslims and Christians are viewed as people of the Book and as such they aren’t Kuffar.
I said it was discrimination, but no, by most standards it wasn’t persecution.
The Christians of Beirut, Jerusalem or Damascus certainly didn’t like the soft discrimination they faced, but it wasn’t remotely as bad as the way either Muslims, or to a lesser extent, Jews were treated in medieval Europe.
In fact, Christians often thrived and in many areas were wealthier than most Muslims and dominated several of the mercantile trades.
They certainly weren’t comparable to blacks in the Jim Crow South or Apartheid South Africa.
I never insulted you. Naming books is not evidence of your claims. Christians have and are being persecuted by Muslims and you even admitted it. The Qur’an and hadith support it.
Aside from that being nonsense, you’re moving the goalpost. Most Christians don’t do plenty of things the NT says should be done but that doesn’t mean the Bible doesn’t say what it does.
You said:
I showed you that Muhammad did not make that clear by showing you the Qur’an claims otherwise in a particular sura. You tried to deny it in multiple ways, including claiming that my different sources were the same (you never told me what you meant by that, by the way).
Sura 5:72 is clear that Christians are disbelievers and are going to Hell.
This thread is amusing from one perspective. We have a range on non-believers attempting to tell believers what they “really” believe. (It reminds me of threads regarding atheism in which various believers attempt to tell atheists just what the atheists “believe.”)
There are a limited number of Christians, (generally among the politically Right wing groups who also hold strong Fundamentalist or evangelical beliefs–and tend to deny that Catholics are Christians), who have bought into the bogus etymological claim that Muslims worship a “moon god.” I am sure that with a bit of effort, we could find a limited number of Muslims or Jews who hold that one or the other groups outside their circle are worshipping a “different” god. On the other hand, the vast majority of Jews, Christians, and Muslims are quite willing to acknowledge that they all worship the same God, (even if claiming the other guys do it badly).
You are wrong. No country currently practices jizya.
Jizya wasn’t just a big chance to piss of the infidels by grabbing their cash. It actually did have a reasonable justification and was a part of a real functional political system. it’s a payment for military protection from outside threats. Since non-Muslims obviously were not going to be good candidates for serving as soldiers for an Islamic state, jizya was a way for them to contribute to the costs of the militaries that protected them. In relatively more modern incarnations, such as those used in the 19th century, jizya has been as a substitute for military service in situations where Muslims are required to serve but service is optional for non-Muslims. Additionally, jizya exempts one from religiously obligatory zakat taxes, since it doesn’t really make sense to ask people to pay another religion’s religious obligations.
It’s roughly like requiring a permanent resident to pay taxes that make up for not registering for the draft and not contributing to social security. It doesn’t really make sense in the modern context, which is why it is no longer practiced by states. But in the age of empires, it was pretty standard practice to solicit tributes from people enjoying your empire’s protection.
For comparison, here is a nice list of when various European countries began to treat Jewish equally under the law. Of course, many countries kind of slid back on that in a spectacular was in the early mid 20th century. In the historical progression of minority rights, dhimma contracts were extremely progressive.
