Christians Only: Is George W. Bush going to Hell?

I want to believe there’s a hell, for if there were, cold-blooded murderers like Bush would be standing at the front of the line.

Too bad the whole concept is so irrational.

I have become increasingly convinced that G.W. converted to the current brand of Fund’ist Christianity that he now practices solely to score political points with right-wing and conservative Christians Texas and the nation at large. Whether this was followed up by a genuine conversion at some point is hard to say, but I doubt it.

Is he going to Hell?

Not for me to say.

I disagree. “Thou shall not kill.” (Deuteronomy 5: 17)

As many others have stated already, it is not for us to decide - or truly even speculate - about the likelyhood of GW entering the kingdom of Heaven or being sent to Hell for his sins.

  1. We don’t know what his sins are. We can speculate, but we’ve not stood in his shoes. We can hate what he’s done, but we do not know what he knows. (which could be nothing)

  2. We do not know what is truly in his heart. Again, we can speculate, but we do not know.

If Bush makes his peace with God at any time before his death - i.e., asks for forgiveness for all of his sins and truly intends not to sin inasmuch as is humanly possible at the time - then my religion says he can be saved. Now, my religion also requires a certain baptismal procedure that is largely semantical but that is taken very seriously amongst the Pentecostals (Acts 2:38) and so in many of their eyes, he wouldn’t be saved for that reason. I disagree with that portion of my religion (among others…) and can only simply say this: If Bush is truly sorry and asks the Lord wholeheartedly for forgiveness for his sins before he dies. then he should be saved.

I should point out that if Bush really wanted to score points with the hard core Christian Right, he wouldn’t be a member of one of the more mainline of the Protestant denominations. The Methodists aren’t known for their radical fundamentalism, generally.

A more fundamentalist leaning man would join, say, a Baptist church. I’d guess some would be frightened at this prospect, except that the last three Baptist presidents we’ve had were Clinton, Carter and Truman.

The upshot of all this is that this concern about the particular denomination a political candidate belongs to seems misguided. It’s the same sentiment that caused folks to vote against Al Smith and JFK because they were Catholic.

We laugh at these beliefs today as a quaint form of bigotry, and rightly so.

The NIV, New American Standard Bible, the Amplified, New Living Translation, English Standard Version, Contemporary English Version, New King James Version, Young’s Literal Translation, and the Holman Christian Standard Version all use the word “murder”, which I’m sure we can all agree has different connotations than “kill”.

Really? Have you read the rest of the Bible? Have you read where God commands the Israelites to kill many, many times. Just look at Joshua, basically every chapter is God commanding Joshua to slaughter people. Chapter 8, for instance, has God giving the Israelites the city of Ai and the Israelites slaughtering all of them – 12,000 in total. This type of thing is repeated throughout the book.

Or, if you want to stick to Deuteronomy, then check out chapter 17, verse 5: “you shall bring out that man or woman who has done this evil deed (serving other gods) . . . and you shall stone them to death.” There are numerous other examples throughout the Law where God commands death.

There are two conclusions to be drawn: 1) God is a liar. In one place He condemns killing and in another commands it. 2) God does not really condemn killing, just murder. Most interpretations of God’s command against “killing” state that it is more properly translated as “murder.”

If God existed and was really serious about folks not bearing false witness, the streets in hell would be paved with presidents and politicians. And no, I do not just mean Republicans.

And where did Jesus say to have the government force your neighbor to care for your other neighbor? I don’t remember him ever saying that the government is responsible for caring for anyone. I seem to recall Him commanding His followers to care for the sick and the poor and the widows. He didn’t say abdicate that responsibility to the government.

Any god that would allow someone who starts a war on false pretenses to avoid eternal punishment is not worthy of worship.

IMO.

Good thing for GWB that you’re not God, right rjung?

But if he were God, and therefore correct about everything, he wouldn’t exist, would he?

Regards,
Shodan

Hell hath no fury like that of a liberal scorned! :slight_smile:

-XT

As a Christian I have to say, “I have no clue.” I live life as best I can, I try not to sin, but I do, sometimes I probably commit sins that I don’t realize at the time and have never recognized in retrospect. I ask forgiveness for the sins I recognize. I chastise myself when I’m cruel or hateful to others. Just because an action I take doesn’t necessarily appear to be “scripturally” sinful doesn’t mean it is something God would like. Jesus taught us to live by example, and that goes beyond just attempting to abstain from sin.

Despite my solid understanding of myself, my religion, and God’s holy scripture I have no real understanding of God. He is beyond my understanding. I cannot tell you in good conscience that I think XX is going to heaven or I think XX is going to hell. I just cannot know that, I cannot know the will and intentions of the almighty.

Now, aside from that, if I was to make some sort of “wild guess” based on certain assumptions we have, even that wouldn’t be accurate in the case of President Bush. I do not know him personally. I don’t have information on what he does in his personal life, it just isn’t available to me.

However, his public persona I do know to some degree. And I’ll say from my understanding of scripture just being commander in chief of a military force that happens to kill enemy soldiers and sometimes accidentally civilians doesn’t put you on the bad side of God. Many of scripture’s most honored figures were military leaders that killed many.

But again, there is still debate about how “false” the pretenses were. You don’t know that WMD weren’t in Iraq, you don’t know that even if some people in the United States Government felt that WMD in Iraq weren’t significant or weren’t a meaningful threat that Bush himself knew all the details. Bureaucracy hides many things from the top of the hierarchy.

Basically introducing a political opinion, even one that is grounded firmly in the opinions of many people on this forum doesn’t really add anything to the discussion.

And finally even if it was on false pretenses any god that doesn’t offer forgiveness isn’t worthy of worship, and the Christian God does offer forgiveness.

“Lo tirtsah” -Don’t murder.

That’s what civilized countries do. Obviously private charity has its place, but the sheer numbers of poor people make government intervention the only viable method for helping the masses. Jesus’ teaching is clear that we ARE our brothers’ keepers.

The problem with that is that Methodism, like most of the major Christian denominations, has a spectrum that ranges from conservatism Fund’ism to liberalism. The denomination in its greatest part might be mainline to liberal. Dubya just happens to belong to the conservative Fund’ist end of the spectrum.

Puh-LEEEESE. Jesus did not say “Take from thy neighbor and feed the poor.”

Your argument about what “civilized country do” is a bit better, but still basically circular in nature.

I agree that we are our brother’s keeper, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that the government is our borther’s keeper. The Bible talks about person-to-person love, not person-to-government-to-person cash transfers. We can debate about whether or not a welfare state is the best way of helping the poor (or whether or not it simply subsidizes destructive lifestyle choices), but the fact remains that there is a debate to be had. It’s not simply a black-and-white issue.

Anyone who makes the statement that “Jesus commands His followers to help the poor so therefore if you don’t support government ‘anti-poverty’ programs then you are a bad Christian” has a very limited view of both religion and politics. A person’s political opinions do not determine the state of his soul. Both the left and the right would benefit from recognizing this.