Christians: what's your take on the prosperity gospel and its proponents?

I’ve been thinking about this on and off for a while, and this article from yesterday’s New York Times made me actually start a thread.

I address my question to Christians specifically because the opinions of some of our more, ahem, strident atheists is fairly easy to predict. I’m an atheist myself,of course, but I don’t think I’m all that strident; I can think of any number of Christian preachers, writers, and thinkers I’d be happy to have a beer with (if I drank beer :D). Nonetheless I tend to think Kenneth Copeland and his ilk are cynically and deliberately distorting the gospel message, and that Jesus would spin in his grave at their deliberate perversions of his teachings.

Thoughts, anybody?

There is an element of this in a large proportion of churches who belong to the evangelical, new church, vaguely non denominational churches I’ve visited. I detest the message as it is wholly a money making ploy.

As a quick aside; I’m not really a Christian, I’m agnostic with many Christian friends, and I’m also in reasonably high demand as a musician in many churches. I’m quite good at the whole teary eyed response making improvisational style common in contemporary church worship. It might sound a bit two faced of me, but I’m not only there to help and see old friends, I consider myself there to study why they believe what they believe.

In my opinion what you give to god should be between you and god. Money isn’t everything and is not the only form of giving. There is nothing wrong, in theory, of giving money to an organisation who you believe will do some good with it. If you are a Christian and accept that god exists and does what the Bible says he does, then it’s quite likely you’ll see the logic in god ‘blessing you’ for giving to him.

Jesus didn’t seem to be too hot on money in the church, but he also taught that you should give, both to the poor and to the church. There was that whole episode with the old woman giving what little she had, in comparison to the rich person giving little of what he had.
The letters of Paul though, are considered pretty much on par with what Jesus said. In fact, it’s not unlikely to be in a Bible study and hear “Paul says this,” and “Paul says that,” and “Paul teachers that we should behave this way.” Since he is viewed as the Ulimate Evangelist and Ambassador of Jesus Himself of the time, it puts a lot of weight into what he wrote. And he wrote a lot about tithes and offerings.
The distinction between the two is made quite clear in most Churches - you should be tithing (giving 10% of your income) AND giving offerings. Tithes don’t get you blessed, they’re silently mandatory (You’ll never be forced, but will be taught that you should be doing this) and offerings are where the real blessing lies.
Different churches and preachers will disagree or agree there, but that seems to be the most common form.

So it’s difficult to argue that the Bible doesn’t teach you to give, and it’s difficult to argue that the Bible doesn’t teach you that when you sacrifice to god he blesses you. It’s the way it is taught that disgusts me most, and how it is often rammed down your throat every Sunday morning. It’s the fact that it can become the sole emphasis of entire ministries. That churches invite preachers who specialise in teaching about giving money. One church I once visited had one man from America (I am from the UK) who would travel across our country teaching the exact same message. He would come to this church every year, apparently. And every year he’d tell them to give more than they did the last. This was completely separate to tithes and offerings, this was a teaching called ‘first fruits’. I honestly can’t say how much of it is really supported strongly in the Bible, but regardless, it was quite sickening to watch.

I also think that giving specifically to be given back to is gloriously missing the point.

There are a lot of vulnerable people out there who are being taken advantage of by this. When they don’t get any kind of return, they’re told that god has blessed them in other ways. “But god gave you a new son. How can you put a price on a life? God gave you something worth more than anything in the universe.” I heard those exact words once, spoken to a couple who were struggling and did not want to have a child yet, but since they were taught that abortions are wrong (because we are fearfully and wonderfully made, strung together in our mothers womb etc etc) they couldn’t avoid having an addition to the family. The child would be a drain on their resources, taking even more away from them.

I think there is likely different tiers of understanding what is going on here. By hanging round in the right places, I have overheard quite scary conversations between visiting preachers, who seem to be unnervingly aware that they are on a mission of exploitation rather than exaltation.*
But they’re rather secretive about that. Then there are pastors of small struggling churches who seem to believe what these preachers, or perhaps follow the teaching because it has proved to have ‘worked’. I continue to see larger and larger church buildings being constructed, which have no doubt being funded by this kind of ministry (stories of anonymous donors have been greatly exaggerated).

There is little transparency when it comes to church funds.

I’d agree with that (barring the grave part :D). The Christian gospel never promises you wealth. Rather the opposite, actually; while one may well happen to become wealthy, that’s not a reward for righteousness, and you’d be expected to manage that wealth for the benefit of others.

IME some of the best people are not the wealthiest at all. And money can be a pretty difficult temptation to handle, leading right to pride, materialism, and all sorts of un-Christian things.

Please leave T. D. Jakes out of this. :smiley:

I believe the prosperity gospel to be a gross distortion of Jesus’ teaching.

While following the Lord could increase earthly riches, it won’t necessarily do so until one enters the Kingdom of God.

The pressure these pastors seem to place on giving money donations in the article seem to indicate that they themselves are the ones applying the pressure and by doing so these pastors are not trusting in the Lord, though they are asking the people to trust. This is very much like the pharasses in scriptures that place heavy burdens on people but don’t help them with it.

Unsurprisingly, Jesus already covered this.

Regards,
Shodan

I had to google him. So you’re saying that Jakes is an example of that?

Well, I WAS saying that. Upon reflection I have decided that, though his sins are many and varied, propounding the prosperity gospel is not currently one of them.

Being as un-judgemental as possible I still think that if you make money the object of your worship or think that personal wealth is a sign of God’s favour is a wrong interpretation of the Gospel.

Doesn’t this part follow directly from the theory that God is the source of blessings, though?

Not to say that all Christians believe that or that that’s uniformly supported by the bible, but you do hear a lot from Christians about thanking God for things.

For a perspective of what is going on in Australia where I am:

Most mainstream churches here reject prosperity gospel outright. There is however degrees of influence of this teaching in different, mostly pentecostal churches. It may not be stated as directly or as crassly as it is in some American churches, but it is still there under the surface.

From a theological point of view what is wrong with prosperity gospel is that it is “overrealised eschatology”. Part of the Christian belief is that when Jesus returns, all believers will be united with Him in a “new heavens and new earth”. While there is some disagreement about what exactly this will be like, one thing that is commonly believed is that it will be a place of blessing. The bible, especially the Old Testament, contains a lot of passages that have been traditionally understood to refer to this new post second-coming age.

The mistake of properity gospel is to re-interpret these passages as talking about this age now. While it is certainly true that God can and does bless people now, he makes no specific promises that he will bless people in certain ways for things. Thus prosperity gospel, in promising people wealth now is making promises that God Himself does not. However I think this element of it is not so bad. Where properity gospel really becomes pernicious is the implication that if you are suffering, it is because either you lack faith or you have done something to displease God. This I think is a belief that is entirely out of line with the life and example of Jesus, who suffers and dies for humanity. It is also out of line with the lives of the prophets and apostles, many of whom suffered for their faith, not for a lack of it. In fairness many churches who are influenced by prosperity gospel do not teach that suffering comes from a lack of faith. While this is the logical opposite of prosperity gospel many churches are simply inconsistent on this point.

In a general sense I think the reason that prosperity gospel is at all popular is that it is the natural merging of Western materialism with Christianity. It shift the focus away from our relationship with God, where it belongs, and puts it onto gaining material wealth. Jesus goes from being our great High Priest to our investment banker.

Personally as a Christian I reject properity gospel as any part of my faith, and the sooner it falls out of fashion that better off Christianity will be.

Calculon.

And a lie, fostered and perpetuated by fakes and charlatans.

Skald:

Let’s be serious. You’ve been around here long enough to know that we don’t have any of those types “Christians” on this board. No on here is going to side with them.

The prosperity gospel folks are not Christians. I hope that it’s not a “no true Scotsman” to define a Christian as one who worships Jesus Christ. These people, though, are quite clearly worshiping wealth.

I am not so sure about this.

Sure, some of the more extreme prosperity gospel people I think are outright fakes and fraudsters. However there are also a lot of good people who are just mislead or mistaken. That is one of the difficulties of prosperity gospel. In many ways it acts as an add on to traditional Christian theology. In the whole scheme of the works of God it only really becomes important when you consider the effects of Jesus death on the cross. Thus properity gospel people can and do say a lot of good things. When prosperity gospel consumes the rest of soneone’s beliefs, then it becomes heretical enough that the person can seriously be considered not a Christian. There are though plenty of properity gospel belivers that I would still consider Christian, just mistaken about the effects of becoming a Christian.

Calculon.

Which they say is being provided by God. And “God controls everything” is a common Christian attitude.

They are Christian, because they say they are. There really isn’t any objective standard over who is and isn’t Christian besides that. You have your standards for who qualifies and these people fail them; other people have other standards.

Prosperity theology is flat out wrong and relies on dangerously incorrect interpretations of scripture. It’s proponents are at best horribly misguided and at worst flat out thieves.

My own take is that they’re worshipping the golden calf, not the God of Abraham et co.

When I was living in Miami, I met people (one of those tiny Protestant Churches) who linked their prosperity to their tithes. “Before I became a Christian, I never had any money! Since I tithe, I have money! It’s the hand of God!”

I told their Pastor “you know and I know the difference here is that for the first time in their lives, they’re using a budget.” “Yep. But hey, if it takes tithing for them to use a budget, who is to say that’s not the hand of God?” “OK, that works.” It was, as so many other pieces of religion are, practical, logical advice which needed to be coated in magic for that specific audience: they were the kind of people who would never have created and followed a budget on the advice of a bank teller, but did so on the advice of their Pastor. To me, what the pastor was doing wasn’t wrong; he was helping those people, even if he did it using psychological sleight-of-hand. If they’d been the kind of person who can take that kind of advice straight, they wouldn’t have needed him.

But when I see people who use “if he’s poor, it’s God’s will” to justify their lack of charity, or who say (not in these exact words) “I’m rich because I’m beloved of the Lord”… I want to get very, very violent. Words like “whitened sepulchres” come to mind, with those people.
They’re not Christians, they’re people who use Christian mystique to whitewash their greed.

Worshiping the Golden Calf? Nonsense! People would never do a thing like that.