Christ's birthdate doesn't fit with the bible

1st, neither Isaiah’s son, nor King Ahaz’s son was named “Immanuel”, so clearly this was a Prophesy. 2. Nowhere does it say WHEN the child shall be born, or WHEN the Virgin shall concieve. Isaiah could possibly be talking of his own time, but other chapters of Isaiah are clearly meant as long term Prophesy. So, there is nothing to say this verse was not either. 3. It is possible that this is not a Messianic verse at all, in that case, certainly it does not indicate that the Messiah was to be born in or about 735 BC. And the Messianic Prophesies in Isaiah were certainly not fulfilled in 735BC or anytime soon, ie Isa.11:6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leaopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them” or Isa. 2:2-4 “And it shall come to past in the last days, that the mountain of the L-rds house shall be established …and all nations shall flow unto it… for out of Zion shall go forth the Law, and the word of the L-rd from Jerusalem… and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war no more”. Unless, of course Jesusalem HAS become the lawgiver of the world, the Temple restored, and we HAVE had peace for the last 2500 years or so, and I missed it. (darn!) :rolleyes:

Look, before you go spouting off somebody elses ideas as your own, the least you could do is identify that book or person. And, it is a good idea, also, before spouting those ideas, to check up and see if that person has any idea whatsoever about what they are talking about. Look, Issac Asimov, in his Guide to the Bible, lists those as yet-to-
come Messainic Prophesies, and he was a well known Atheist & Secular Humanist. But, he at least READ the Bible before he went off on some half-baked theories. :rolleyes:

Its interesting how this topic continually pops up from time to time. Do a search on open forums as far back as you can, and you’ll see several threads that have discussed this over the years.

My take involving the interpretation of how the original language should be translated to come to the conclusion that the concept of the virgin birth is actually the correct way to translate the passages both in Isaiah 7: 14/Isaiah 8:8 and the reference to this passage in Matthew 1:23 is as follows.

I believe to understand the concept of the virgin birth in translation, we must understand the significance of the title or name of the person who was to be born: Immanuel, which in itself means ‘God with us.’

In the context of the passage in Isaiah 7, Syria and Israel (the Northern Kingdom, with its capital in Samaria, as opposed to Judah, the sourthern kingdom, with its capital in Jerusalem) had desired to form a coalition with Judah in order to oppose the increasing power of Assyria. Judah had vacillated, and Syria and Israel determined to punish her. Upon hearing this news, King Ahaz of Judah “trembled in fear.” The Lord sent the Prophet Isaiah to inform him that he had nothing to fear. The power of his enemies was about played out, and they could do him no harm. Isaiah even commanded him to ask or a sign in confirmation of the divine message. This Ahaz refused to do, with a sudden heretofore absent reverence for the true God. Hence, in reply to the hypocritical king, Isaiah announces that the Lord will give to the people of Judah a sign. In vision the prophet beholds a virgin (‘alma’, literally “an unmarried woman,” or a “young woman,” but as I explain later, I lean towards the former as the proper translation), who is with child and about to bear a son and she will call his name Immanuel.

In interpreting this prophecy, I believe there are three factors to keep in mind:

a. The birth of the child is to be a sign. It is true that in itself a sign need not be a miracle, but in this particular context, after the command issued to Ahaz to ask for a sign “deep or high,” one would be justified in expecting a sign such as the recession of the shadow on the sundial (see Isaiah 38: 7-8). Thus, in the context of the chapter, this is something far from “ordinary,” such as the birth of the son of a King, or Isaiah’s own son. There should be something unusual in the birth; a birth in the ordinary course of nature would not seem to meet the requirements of the sign. In this connection it must be noted that the question is made more difficult by the fact that there cannot be a local reference of the prophecy to Hezekiah (son of Ahaz, and a future King who demonstrated the character qualities of a righteous leader) , because Hezekiah had already been born. (applying this passage to Hezekiah has been how many modern scholars have tried to circumvent the whole “virgin birth” concept)

b. The mother of the child is an unmarried woman. Why did Isaiah designate her by this particular word alma? It is sometimes said that had he wished to refer to a virgin birth there was a good word at his disposal, namely, “betula.” (I know I’m not spelling these hebrew terms correctly, but just transliterating them the best I can). But an examination of the usage of the latter word in the Old Testament reveals that it was unsatisfactory, in that it would have been ambiguous. The word betula may designate a virgin, but when it does the explanatory phrase ‘and a man had not known her’ is often added (cf. Gen. 24:6). The word may also designate a betrothed virgin (cf. Dt. 22: 23). In this latter case the virgin is known as the wife (“issa”) of the man, and he as her husband (“is”) But the word “betula” may also indicate a married woman (Joel 1:8). On the basis of this latter passage a tradition arose among the Jews in which the word could clearly refer to a married woman. Had Isaiah employed this word, therefore, it would not have been clear what type of woman he had in mind, whether virgin or married. Other Hebrew. words which were at his disposal would also not be satisfactory. Had he wished to designate the mother as a young woman he would most likely have employed the common term “naara” (‘girl’). In using the word “alma” however, Isaiah employs the one word which is never applied (either in the Bible or in the other Near Eastern sources) to anyone but an unmarried woman. This unmarried woman might have been immoral, in which case the birth could hardly have been a sign. This leaves the conclusion that the mother was a good woman and yet unmarried; in other words, the birth was supernatural. It is the presence of this word “alma” which makes an application of the passage to some local birth difficult, if not impossible.

c. There is also the force of the term for the child to be born: “Immanuel.” A natural reading of the passage would lead us to expect that the presence of God is to be seen in the birth of the child himself. This interpretation, however, is seriously disputed, and vigorously rejected by most modern scholars when interpreting this passage. My undergraduate religion professors offered that the “presence of God” announced by Immanuel is found not in the birth of a living person, but rather, in the deliverance of Judah from her two northern enemies. The infancy of the child is made the measure of time that would elapse until the two enemies are removed. Such a period of time would be short – a child learns the difference between good and evil at a tender age. Hence, within, say, two years, or possibly even less, Judah would have nothing to fear from Syria and Israel. In this deliverance the presence of God would be manifested, and as a token or pledge of this deliverance some mother would call her child Immanuel.

This interpretation poses other problems which it does not answer. What reason would a mother have for naming her particular child Immanuel? How could she know that her own child and no other would be a sign that in two years or so the presence of God would be manifested in the deliverance of Judah from Syria and Israel? Furthermore, how would Israel itself know that a particular child had been born in answer to the prophecy and that the birth of this particular child would be the promised sign? It would seem that, if the prophecy refers to a local birth, the child to be born must be someone prominent. The most prominent person, namely Hezekiah, is ruled out, and therefore we must assume that it is a child of Isaiah or some other child of Ahaz. But this is also ruled out by the word , alma. Neither the wife of Ahaz nor the wife of Isaiah could properly be designated an “alma:, for the obvious reason that both were married women.

Also, if this was to truly be a “sign,” it would not have been terribly significant if it was merely contemporary to the situation at hand for Ahaz, in that within another two generations, the power of the Babylonian empire would swallow Judah whole. In other words, a “sign” isn’t much of a sign if it provides only temporary political relief, particularly when Ahaz’s throne will topple in about 80 years. It must therefore have broader significance.

It seems best, then, to apply the name Immanuel to the Child Himself. In His birth the presence of God is to be found. God has come to His people in a little Child, that very Child whom Isaiah later names ‘Mighty God’ (“el gibbor”) This interpretation is strengthened by the fact that Isaiah is seeking to dissuade men from trusting the Assyrian king. The nation’s help rests not in Assyria but in God. In this dark moment God is with His people. He is found in the birth of a Child.

The fifteenth and sixteenth verses of Isaiah 7 then use the infancy of the divine Child as a measure of the time that will elapse until Ahaz is freed from the fear of his two northern enemies. Ahaz rejects the sign of Immanuel, and turns to the king of Assyria. That king and his successors cause Judah’s downfall, but for the remnant there was given the promise of Immanuel, and in Immanuel they would find their hope and salvation. Thus, the prophecy of the “time lapse” is actually speaking of a spiritual oppression, not a political one (or is at least operating on both levels). It is ultimately fulfilled in Jesus.


Soxfan59
John 16:13

By the looks of things, it doesn’t appear to me that lindsay wants to debate. The first post seems like a GQ; but then I realized it was just an excuse to bash Christians. Maybe I’m wrong, I can’t read the mind of another poster, but the tone of her subsequent posts seems more suited to the pit. Unprovoked belittling of another’s faith is, to me, unsuitable for the GD forum.

Tell me if the tone of these comments seems to be an honest attempt at getting the OP question answered, or encouraging a civil debate

Note the use of her quotes around scripture as an attemp to belittle.

Someone who says grace before dinner is an “idiot.” Believing “that old stuff.” “Fairy tale.” There are other, more subtle, insinuations that come through loud and clear.

Then, we find out she is shilling for some book she read.

I am pleased, however, to see other posters refuse to take the bait and actually contribute interesting information concerning some OT interpretations.

I was going to say jewish tradition has it as being at 12, which fits in with when both were taken over by the Assyrians. Otherwise, I wish I’d been awake enough to write this. :slight_smile:

Oy vavoy.

Where do you think the Spanish name came from?

Jesus’ name wasn’t Jesus, of course. There’s no J sound in the Hebrew language. It was Yehoshua, which is usually translated as Joshua. I’m not certain why his name ended up as Jesus in English, but it undoubtedly has to do with going through myriad translations.

If you just want to bash Christianity, that’s why we have the Pit. But be warned, expect to be attacked if you post this sort of offensive stuff there.

Matthew used the Greek translations of the OT, which his group believed were a better translation than some of the Hebrew versions floating around. Yes, I am quite aware that Hebrew was the original language, but the versions had been copied & recopied, and translated repeatedly. His version used the word “parthenos”, which has the distinct meaning of virgin. His version (the Septuagint) was widely considered the authorative version by many, at that time. It was used, although not in toto, by the Jewish scholars who gathered at Jamnia, in AD 90, who then wrote/assembled/edited the now authorative Jewish Torah/OT. Note that therefore, before 90AD, ie when Matthew wrote his Gospel, The Septuagint version was considered the most authorative. It is possible*, and will remain so until we find one in Isaias’s handwriting, that the Septuagint, or Matthew’s version, has it correct, and it IS “virgin” as opposed to “young woman”. This is one of those things that has to be taken on faith, at least for now. Both faiths claim their version to be written under Divine Guidance.
*IMHO- the Jewish/Hebrew translations are more authorative, in a strictly historical perspective, but, given a rationalist viewpoint, the two words are close enuf as to make either reasonably possible.

The book is "Bible Prophecy Failure or Fulfillment? by Tim Callahan. Publication date is 1997 by Millenium Press.

I am not bashing anyone’s beliefs. I have no idea what an X-ian is or any of the other beliefs that are popular.

Tim Callahan is, I think, a member of the Skeptic Society.

Got the book from the library, thank you. Heard of it in Skeptic Magazine.

This is a good place to ask questions about it then. :slight_smile:

Actually, you are. You called the Bible a ‘horror book,’ you, and you have called Biblical religions fairy tales. This is what we call ‘bashing.’ It’s not nice. You seem to have stopped doing it, but it’s hypocrital to say that you weren’t trying to be rude when it’s so obvious that you were - and it’s right here in this thread!

As previously stated, I am not a Christian, but I found your earlier posts offensive and ill-informed. You read one book and are now just pulling bits and pieces from it to attack a religion you have confessed ignorance of. I highly recommend you actually READ parts of the Bible before you start attacking it. I’m sure a Christian here can recommend a good translation that’s not in convoluted English. Don’t worry, it won’t bite.

I doubt if my recommendation will be followed, BUT: try Issac Asimovs Guide to the Bible (both volumes). It was written by a non-beleiver, but one who has respect for the Bible as a work of history & literature. I get a lot of my best stuff from it. It is not the most scholarly, but it makes good reading, and altho there are a few generalizations, I rarely have found it wrong. If you non-beleivers read THAT, at least, then we can debate in civilized fashion. You will find some good ammo in there also.

You wrote the Bible, HomeSlice? Wow, I’ve always wanted to meet you. Can I have your autograph?

Oh, you meant you bought a copy and therefore it belongs to you. Fine, my Bible is my book, too.