CIA

Great Debates
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<<Please feel free to (ahem) debate the pros and cons of the CIA in an appropriate forum>> - Manhattan, 11/15/00
I came to Great Debates to debate it. Since th thead is an exile, it contains several posts and it’s great. Or at least long.
So, probably it belongs here. If not, the mods know what to do.

It began as a reply to a question: “what to do? This lady now is a CIA officer”.

<<Partly because the CIA does its job you can post here. With the KGB or Stasi we probably would never see your name here, from now on. Try to find anything about the KGB or Stasi, on the Internet. Even now. How much do you know about Iranian couterintelligence (CIA counterparts)? No matter what jounalists manage to find out about the CIA, gets ririculed, criticized, etc.
In general, CIA business is a “dirty business”, but somebody has to do it. Whatever info you’ll find will be incomplete due to the nature of the subject. Try to analyse this info in perspective.
And finally: almost in any other country you’d never know who she works for.>>

<<The CIA has admitted to plotting several assassination attempts on Castro in hearings. Yep, killing Castro. I’m sure it’s necessary to the survival of our country, eh, Peace?

They’ve definately been involved in undermining democratically elected governments. Check out this recent story:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/11/13/cia.chile.02/

Killing Kennedy? I don’t think so. But don’t be so quick to discount the crack/CIA connection. There’s no doubt that Oliver North knew and turned a blind eye to Contra drug flights into the US (North’s diary mentions of a Contra drug plane). The CIA must also know about this sort of thing, but they also turn a blind eye to it. I don’t know enough to say if they helped or not, but I wouldn’t put it past them…

They’ve also admitted in hearings to killing innocent civilians (whoops!). Yes, the Air Force does this too, but the CIA is not bombing anyone - if they kill someone, it’s probably because a CIA operative wanted to kill this specific person. Blaming the whole CIA organization on what it claims are overzealous and inappropriate actions by it’s agents may be inappropriate, however.

And don’t forget MK Ultra, where the CIA dosed unsuspecting civilians with LSD in investigations of the drug as a mind-control agent. Eventually one person committed suicide. I have no idea what the evidence for this is, so take that with a grain of salt. However, it is widely believed, even by major news media.

At any rate, of course much of what the CIA does it fairly mundane. Monitoring other countries, looking for troop movements, etc. All necessary, I’m sure. But as far as their record on The CIA does it’s fair share of incredibly stupid things like any organization composed of human beings but they also serve to prevent lots of bad stuff from happening that the public is by and large oblivious to. >>

<<What would Rhythmdvl have replace the critical (and sometimes unpalatable) functions of the CIA in the nasty real world where terrorists plot and plan to wreak destruction on American targets of opportunity both inside and outside the US?

Americans are allowed the luxury of taking freedoms and ideals seriously because there are “bad guys” like the CIA
in the shadows, de-lousing the place.>>
<<Avu, the CIA ain’t a church charity. Some mistakes, mishapes and blunders are unavoidable and even should be expected. The CIA cannot finction like a well oiled mechanism considering the nature of dirty business they are in. You appear to be a balanced peson, but I hate this dirty-assed liberals who apply the same standards to the CIA, etc. they grew up in their sterili kinderdartens in the suburbs with. The CIA wanted to kill Castro not because they are bloody serial killers. But because it seemed the fast and efficient way to finish one of the most oppressive regimes on Earth. Or was it better to invade Cuba and loose thosands of American lives? Would you also be opposed to kiling Hitler? Cuba was small and inefficient. It still tried to cause turmoil around the world. Where would you be today if Cuba was like Germany? And are you sure that Castro never planned to kill an American president? Do you think that the pauper USSR poured billions in Ciba only because of “fraternal internationalism”? Incredibly insightful YOU are absolutely right: Cuba never thteatened the existence of the U.S. It was (and is) more like a mouse gnawing at elephant’s feet. But it gladly offered its soil to deploy Soviet missles, intended to destroy this country.
Civilians are occasional CIA victims. I do not justify killing civilians. I do not think that CIA randomly kills cimilians, or the ones they do not like. I think the “civilians” were somehow involved. It’s not a direct analogy, but if the “civilians” who bombed the USS Cole were killed, 17 young Americans were alive today. Instesd, we wanted to appear “friendly” and “clean” and disarmed our sentries.
As I mentioned, the fact that you can post here anything you want, including CIA criticism, is partially due to the fact that CIA exist and, better or worse, do their job. >>

<<OLD:<< Some of the scary stuff is how the CIA supports Nazi’s and genocide in South America, and runs drugs into our country. Lovely>> I though that Nazis and CIA never existed simultaneously. I would also like to know which people was killed by CIA in South America, when, what for, etc.
CIA was not created to fight drug wars. But considering that its experience, tactics, methods could be very useful and that the agencies that were created to fight drug wars are not successful, why not let CIA help limit the exposure of young stupid people in this contry to harmful substances?>>

quote:
<<Originally posted by peace
Avu, CIA ain’t a church charity. Some mistakes, mishapes and blunders are unavoidable and even should be expected. CIA cannot finction like a well oiled mechanism considering the nature of dirty business they are in. You appear to be a balanced peson, but I hate this dirty-assed liberals who apply the same standards to CIA, etc. they grew up in their sterili kinderdartens in the suburbs with.

I don’t expect the CIA never to make mistakes. However, deliberating violating international law by assassination is another story.
quote:
CIA wanted to kill Castro not because they are bloody serial killers. But because it seemed the fast and efficient way to finish one of the most oppressive regimes on Earth.

This is not the reason that they were attempted to be overthrown. We supported, and still do support regimes that are equally and in fact more oppressive. The US do not do things because we are nice guys. We do things because it’s in our best interest.

At any rate, the US should not be assassinating world leaders. It’s not legal by international law, and it’s not ethical. This sort of thing also subverts democracy in our own country. We have no control over what the CIA does, it does it in secret, and we find out about much later, if at all. By the time the news gets out, it’s been so long ago that citizens can no longer do anything about it.
quote:
Civilians are occasional CIA victims. I do not justify killing civilians. I do not think that CIA randomly kills cimilians, or the ones they do not like. I think the “civilians” were somehow involved.
quote:
In the case I am thinking of, it is clear that the civilian was an innocent. No, the CIA don’t go around randomly killing people, though - the person was obviously involved in some situation. I’d love to give more info, but haven’t been able to find the article I recall reading about this…

<<I don’t expect the CIA never to make mistakes. However, deliberating violating international law by assassination is another story.>>
Of course. I gave you my rational. You still didn’t tell me about Hitler.

<<. We supported, and still do support regimes that are equally and in fact more oppressive.>> I do not care how oppressive Saudi Arabia is. It’s their buisness. Iraq oppresses its people and is a theat to our security. So is Cuba. Right now, nobody wishes to position missles on their soil. I’m sure it’s only matter of time. Castro needs money and as soon as he finds a willing payer…you’ll see. It was CIA that discovered Soviet missles then, which lead to Kennedy demand, etc. I’m sure, Castro still remembers. But right price, changed times and guys like you may make him forget. Or his successor. I’d rather CIA keep an eye on Castro. As to kill him…eh, probably he’s not worth the trouble. But you still didn’t answer about Hitler…

<<At any rate, the US should not be assassinating world leaders. It’s not legal by international law, and it’s not ethical.>> We do not assassinate them anymore. Maybe, that’s why there are so many tyrants and dictators now. They are not afraid. But, as I said, I do not want to be worlds policeman. We did nothing to Duvalier, he was not menacing. Haitian people did. If another Hitler comes, I’d rather CIA assassinated him. It’s better to be alive than unethical. Or than to be an ethical corpse.

<<This sort of thing also subverts democracy in our own country.>> Right now Al Gore subverts democracy in out country, not the CIA: he lost the election and wants the courts to appoint him president. Without Al Gore, how does CIA “subvert democracy”? Do not repeat senselessly what you’ve heard from liberal professor at the college.

<< We have no control over what the CIA does, it does it in secret, and we find out about much later, if at all.>> Yes, you and Saddam would like to know in advance about CIA plans, I know.

<<In the case I am thinking of, it is clear that the civilian was an innocent. >> Again, I do not equate that particular civilian with Aden/Cole terrorists. I deeply regret his death. I am not for killing people in the field, even if they were “involved”: we have courts, etc. All I’m saying is: that are times, when we (CIA) have to kill (terorrists, Hitlers), even if “unethical”. We’ll wash our hands, if they get dirty. It’s better than to wash our bload off them later. Do not treat CIA as unruly teenager out of control. Usually it knows what it is doing.
quote:

Originally posted by peace
You appear to be a balanced peson, but I hate this dirty-assed liberals who apply the same standards to CIA, etc. they grew up in their sterili kinderdartens in the suburbs with.

Interestingly enough, it’s usually the right-wingers who are distrustfull of the CIA and want to disband it, and the liberals who support it.

Anyone remember when Jesse Helms was trying to get rid of CIA funding for an anti-communist union program in Latin AMerica and the AFL-CIO and the CIA were fighting it? Such delicious irony.

quote:
CIA wanted to kill Castro not because they are bloody serial killers. But because it seemed the fast and efficient way to finish one of the most oppressive regimes on Earth.

Right much worse than Chile, or any of the other right wing dictatorships the CIA supported. Much worse than the Taliban, or the Contras, or the Salvadorean nun-rapers. Oh wait, no it wasn’t.
quote:
As I mentioned, the fact that you can post here anything you want, including CIA criticism, is partially due to the fact that CIA exist and, better or worse, do their job.

You keep believing that. Also, if you want to belive that the reason you haven’t been mauled by a tiger in the last couple of weeks is cause of that anti-tiger medallion you bought, go right ahead.
quote:
I thought that Nazis and CIA never existed simultaneously.

I recommend you read Whiteout. The CIA helped smuggle Nazi scientists out of Eurpoe to work for the US. One, Klaus Barbio was set up in Bolivia with CIA support. Continued genocide against indians there. Lovely fellow.
quote:
I would also like to know which people was killed by CIA in South America, when, what for, etc.

Well. Allende got some help from the CIA. In Africa, Mobutu’s predecessor was kiled by the CIA. Unfortunately I don’t have my books with me. Go look it up.

quote:
The CIA was not created to fight drug wars. But considering that its experience, tactics, methods could be very useful and that the agencies that were created to fight drug wars are not successful, why not let the CIA help limit the exposure of young stupid people in this contry to harmful substances?

Did you read my post? The CIA smuggles drugs into this country to pick up cash. The CIA frequently stops the DEA from doing their job. The CIA supports heroin growers, and has in the past supported heroin dealers. Lucky Luciano anyone?

Since when the AFL-CIO became liberal? They would fight tooth and nail to eliminate union funding anywhere.
<< I recommend you read Whiteout. The CIA helped smuggle Nazi scientists out of Eurpoe to work for the US. One, Klaus Barbio was set up in Bolivia with CIA support. Continued genocide against indians there. Lovely fellow.>>

The Nazi party was desisted in 1946. Individual members lived longer, including into the CIA years, 1947-… The CIA did not try to save former Nazis or “Nazi scientists”. It tried to assure that we get their mental power in order to use it. One of the reasons you are alive today.

I’ve never heard of any tribes or peoples, in South America or anywhere, being killed by the CIA (somebody above said “genocide”) Only hate-blinded liberals can come with accusing a government agency, CIA or IRS, of genocide, using taxpayers’ money. S. Allende, in general, belongs to Casto’s company and should be treated accordingly. In general, I do not think we should bother killing Mobutus or their predecessors, etc., unless they become a direct threat to us. Drug “smuddling” by the CIA looks like another unfounded “genocide” story. The CIA, like the Pentagon, can get any money it needs, or more, without lifting a finger. The do not need to smuggle drugs to get money. Besides, they have to show any “side” money in their budget, and, being a “money-losing” agency, they are required to return any “extra” money to the federal budget. If you need money, Old, you are free to deal drugs. The CIA (or any other agency) does not and will not do it. Do not ascribe them your mentality.
Perhaps, to achieve some goals, the CIA had to sometimes participate in drug smuggling operations. But without knowing the details (which are usually unknown because of the nature of the activity), do not repeat after your smarter-than-you college professors.

The CIA is partially responsible for many of our failures. It is also partially responsible for the creation of the Internet, and, indirectly, of course, for smooth functioning of this BB and, directly, for your ability to post here anything you want. It also is partly responsible for the crash of the USSR and recent mellowing of Cuba, N. Korea and Iran. I know that you can’t stand the odor of shit, especially if it comes from the CIA, but I can and prefer to smell it and be alive. You are concerned more with the rights of people whose name you can’t even spell off, than with the security of your own wife and children, but only because they are secure. Partly, because the CIA is here. Very uncharismatic agency. But it does its job.

I posted it here becase I am sick and tired of hearing this PC bullshit of “the CIA and other imperialist agencies killing innocent people”. These innocent people usually barely survive their own tyrants. As long as these tyrants are not threatening to us, I do not care about them.Haitian Duvalier is a good example. When his own people had enough, they took care of him. Not the CIA.

Am I alone here? Or am I totally off and the world is really populated by cute little gremlins?

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Um … got any links to the thread(s) you’re condensing this stuff from?

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Here is the link the OP refers to. To quickly sum up, a good friend of my true Blave’s just got a job as an intelligence officer with the CIA. I was a bit put off by her choice of employer, but did not have enough facts to give good justification for my distaste. I turned to GQ to ask for a credible critiques of the CIA’s role in world affairs. In replies to the OP, a debate began to brew regarding the pros and cons of the CIA. You can see from Peace’s OP here some of the issues that were raised. I myself don’t think I can contribute too much to this discussion, because I have yet to track down and read the sources I was pointed to in GQ, but I can add a few things.

First of all, let’s put Hitler to bed. I can’t speak for everyone, of course, but I believe that people are not taking you up on your Would you also be opposed to killing Hitler question because it is a weak example at best, and a hackneyed cliché at worst. If you are going to ask if someone would be opposed to having our government step in and assassinate Hitler (because of the nature of the topic, that the government is doing the work is tacitly assumed) than you have to make your hypothetical complete. Complete in that you have to tell us when this assassination is taking place. In addition, since we are not totally in the realm of fantasy, you hypothetical must be complete in that the information an agency has about Hitler is limited to the time frame that the choice arises. In other words, you can’t expect an agency to have perfect information either about Hitler himself (i.e. what his plans really are) nor can you expect the agency to operate knowing what atrocities he will later commit.

So, would you be opposed to killing Hitler? When? As a youth? What would a government agent have to go on? Well, killing a twelve year old boy makes no sense. What about shortly after he writes Mien Kampf? Well, at least then there is a bit of something to go by. But does that mean you would give a government agency the right to assassinate potential leaders of foreign countries based on their writings? It is possible to support such a position, but you will have to reckon that stance with a stance that upholds the first amendment. What about after he takes power, but before he takes up arms against the world? You would give our government the right to assassinate any world leader they think could threaten the rest of the world? After he invades Poland? France? Once war breaks out, I do believe we are out of the realm of assassinations, but if you insist that we are not, than I’ll say yes, during war the military leaders of your enemy could be considered valid targets.

So as omnipotent beings with the power of hindsight it is easy to ask if assassinating Hitler is justified, but in the real world you have to assign that choice to a group of individuals working with imperfect information. I believe Menachem Begin was once considered a dangerous terrorist in the pre-Israel days. I know he eventually went on to win the Nobel Peace Prize. When do you decide?

Lastly on the Hitler question, I am sure that there are threads buried somewhere on the boards that asks if given a gun and a time machine, would you go back and kill him. One of the cores to that debate is what the unintended consequences of that act would be. Who would replace him? How would the world be different? This applies here because not only would you have a government agency assassinating potential despots, but continuing to assassinate leaders until one came into power that met ‘our’ concept of a good ruler. This leads down a slippery slope that many of us don’t want to travel.

As for the role of the CIA in world affairs, I think it is fair to divide their activities into two general categories - spying and meddling in other government’s affairs. Spying, as you have said, is somewhat of necessary evil. I am in agreement with you in that intelligence gathering is critically important to a nation’s safety. If they do things to meet this end that I as an ordinary citizen couldn’t do, this is akin to the police’s power to tap phones, run surveillance, etc… In terms of interfering with the operations and functions of other governments, that is where I disagree with you. I don’t think that they have a right to clandestinely change (or attempt to change) the power structure of another nation in my supposed interests. I don’t think they have the moral right to do so, nor do I think they have the practical capabilities to do so. And lastly, their efforts to dominate other countries breeds contempt and animosity on the world stage such that we would be better off had they not attempted to in the first place. This is where I begin to get on shaky informational ground, and such was my reason for posting to GQ. I’ll leave it to those that made the recommendations to post specific examples.

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Rhythm, first off, I forgot to tell you: in my opinion, do not change anything because this lady is a CIA operative or just a computer operator for them. Some people here apparently are so pure that they are friendly only with guys who run soup kitchens and homeless shelters. I do not think that working for the CIA is less noble than work for, e.g., Coca-Cola who just recently paid out millions in response to racial disrimination lawsuit. After all, even if you do not like everything the CIA does, it’s not the Gestapo or Stasi and your friend is not in charge of its Policy Committee. She is working. It’s noble in itself. Being a society parasite is a shame.
Keep your friends based on how friendly they are, let them make their living as they see fit.
Second, I’d like to thank you. You are the only one (so far) who took me sort of seriously. I reread my post and decided, that nobody will answer it. I know I was too emotional. Not because of the CIA, but because of some witle… (I do not want to clash with the mods and find out what excactly constitutes a personal offense here) posters. I may not like everythig the CIA does myself and the way they do it (if I know). The CIA is a big governmental beaurocracy. Almost everything the government does, it does poorly. The CIA makes many mistakes, it does difficult things. The IRS and the FCC make mistakes. By the FCC statute, people are not killed directly as a result of the FCC blunders. People are put in jail and their money is taken away as a result of the IRS blunders. I can understand that. But many people, enjoy the fruits of what the CIA is doing, but they do not realise it (they prefer to think of high matters) and are the first to repeat communist propaganda myths about the “imperialistic CIA”. Years ago, “The Daily Worker” was on Moscow payroll (according to recent aknowledgements of former Moscow officials. The CIA knew about it at the time, but a few believed it). The Daily Eorker spread the info (however its limited readership allowed). Why these people continue to spread it now, is beyond me. They probably sell webpages or someting. Must be their stu…ty (No epithets, mods). College educated people capable of operating a PC, repeat lies about a US government agency; the CIA:

  1. conducts genocide in South America
  2. smuggles drugs into this country
  3. kills civilians
  4. what else?
    I believe that the CIA uses fewer and fewer operatives and is now one of the most high-tech governmental agencies. The moment they could, they will completely give up the manpower abroad. Spies are risky, expensive etc.
    I checked one of the webpages quoted. There was the story about the CIA’s director of the Third Tropical difectorate (the one located on the third floor). One morning he got up, caled up his first deputy and said: “Let’s kill a couple of tribes in Amazonia. They are getting on my nerves”. “Yes, Sir, said the deputy, but we have no one in Amazonia. All our people are stationed in the capital”. “We have many personnel in Havana. Get some of them there, let them kill the fuck*** Indians”. This page had a few links to eyewitnesses’ testimonies, but I had no time to follow them.

About Hitler. I’am not crazy, it was a rhetorical question. Our contemporary, Saddam, ain’t Hitler( yet). But millions of people demanded to kill him and millions still ask why we didn’t finish him? I’m not sure we didn’t actually tried to during the Gulf war. I do not want to go into this but you know what I mean. And in Lybia. Yet, millions of people say we shouldn’t kill foreign leaders. Never. Perhaps. But then they demand that we protect the Bosnians and the Kosovars and the Hutus and…, but shall not touch Milocevics, or Khadaffis, or…
Do not look futher, I have no answers and they wouldn’t listen to me anyway. But grown up people, even not very educated, got to understand that it’s not easy to decide and to always make the right decision. Yet, it’s not the reason to take the shit out of yourself and pour it on the CIA.

Q<<As for the role of the CIA in world affairs, I think it is fair to divide their activities into two general categories - spying and meddling in other government’s affairs.>>
Yes, we can decide that the CIA does only spying and does not act upon the gathered information. It will also diminish the amount of info gathered and will save money. But until such decision is made, let the CIA do its job well. And do whatever is necessary. Snafus are unavoidable and they happen not becase the CIA is evil, as many painted it here, and wants blood or just wants to get publicity.

Q<<And lastly, their efforts to dominate other countries breeds contempt and animosity on the world stage such that we would be better off had they not attempted to in the first place.>>
I am sure you do not believe that they actually want to “dominate” other countries. We have plenty of everything in this country and can afford to buy whatever we need in other countries. But these f*** liberals (see the epithets above) say “Hands off S. Allende!” and then “Do somethind about this bloody Milosevic!” Bloody Milosevic kills his own people. I regret it, but they are his people, not mine. S. Allende kisses the ass of the Soviets, who swore to bury me. I have priorities.

This bitter reproof was ignited by highly “insigtfull” and wise Sdopers. They think that if they quote other hateful gangsters to support their fallacies, they will become trustworthy. I can see them from afar, I used to deal with real masters, amateurs like them are just hor-d’oevres for my breakfast.

Enjoy your friendship!

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THe CIA may not commit genocide in South America, but they do fund the right wing fascist military governments, to overthrow communists, like Salvador Allende in Chili…(And look where they ended up-with Pinochet!)

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I agree, Gui, it’s total waste of money. Communsts are dying off by themselves. BTW, how do you know this? Did you read the CIA budget?
Q<<THe CIA may not commit genocide in South America>> “may not”: is it figure of speach or you are not sure?

Q<<Salvador Allende in Chili…(And look where they ended up-with Pinochet!)>>Where?

I think Pinochet commited crimes. I tend not to trust my own feelings, I’ve been wrong before. That"s why I’d like to see the results of court investigation. I know that he is “unable to stand trial”. He looks very sick. I do not know whether he can or can’t, but I think that torturing him now will probably not do much good other than bring understandable satisfaction for the victim’s relatives. Pinochet was not alone. But “small guys” who “carried orders”, are never prosecuted.
And where are you when communists kill their own people? After all, the “right wing fascist military” only followed their examples. Lenin and Stalin were far ahead oh Hitler. We had Cambodia not long ago, we have Burma now. I do not hear much…It’s only when stupid CIA funds whoever you do not like…

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Burma, peace? Are you saying the SLORC are leftists? This would be news to me. Please elaborate.

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Gladly. If you take your precious time and spell out SLORC.
I assume that that the Burma thing was the only uncertain thing in my long post.
The thrust of the part in which Burma was mentioned was that we have tragedies all over the word, from the left and from the right. Cambodia was clearly “left”. I can’t determine the exact position of Burma (lack of info), but it’s recent name was “Socialist Republic of Union of Burma”. Perhaps, it moved right since, the whole word did.

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The SLORC is the State Law and Order Restoration Council, the military junta that has ruled Burma (now Myanmar) since 1962. They - perhaps aware of how Orwellian their name sounded (which is why I referred to to it in such terms) - have since changed their name to the State Peace and Development Council (SPDC). For a little information, try this US State dept link.

Well, no. Allende was democratically elected, and that’s a pretty big thing in my book. Perhaps he was a fool, but it is a pretty big call to suggest replacing the legitimate government of a country with a bunch of thugs. Particularly when - in the 70s - this gave the impression to millions of young people around the world that merely to question the established order was to be a communist stooge and qualify one’s political organisation for sabotage and murder. This has always seemed to me a great way of enabling people to paint the West and the Soviets as moral equals.

As for the CIA, a joke: how do you know they tried to kill Castro? The Cold War is over and he’s still alive and in charge.

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We were just discussing this in my Latin American history course.
Pinochet IS guilty…the guy might not be convicted, but he’s gonna be miserable.
I could look up the book, if you like.