I think that we should separate the reasons for a man to be circumcised from the reasons for a boy to be circumcised. After all, an uncircumcised adult or teenager can always elect to be circumcised, so any benefit that occurs in adulthood is not dependent the circumcision having been performed shortly after birth.
People have mentioned, for example, that being circumcised reduces a man’s risk of contracting HIV. How relevant those numbers are to any particular man is open to interpretation, but I’ll go out on a limb and say that circumcision does not reduce the risk of contracting HIV for boys who are too young to be sexually active anyway.
More relevant to this discussion are the benefits of circumcision to a child. If circumcision reduces or increases (both have been asserted in this thread) the risk of serious urinary tract infections in, say, 5-year-olds, then that is certainly relevant. If it reduces or increases the risk of serious urinary tract infections in 40-year-olds but not in children, then it’s not really a compelling reason to have an infant circumcised.
So, how do the benefits and drawbacks of circumcision performed shortly after birth stack up against the benefits and drawbacks of circumcision performed at age 13 or 18 or 33?
As an uncircumcised male I can say that it feels DAMN good, and I last as long as I want to last, and always have. And I would laugh at any woman that complained about a freshly washed penis still holding onto any bad smells. And I would probably make fun of her stank vagina afterward.
I went through these arguments about 30 years ago when my son was born. The arguments on both sides were made by people emotionally attached. I saw both sides and washed my hands of the whole thing. My wife was convinced it should not be done. So it was not. I still don’t know if there is a definitive answer.
I agree that this is the real question to ask (and the answer is pretty damn obvious). The supposed benefits of circumcision are neither overwhelming nor very time sensitive. So what reason is there for you to take your son out of the decision making loop for this personal choice? After all it’s his body, and if your son does weigh the options and decides to get circumcised at 14, there is the added benefit of 14 years more research and progress in the field of circumcision research.
Now the absolute worst argument I’ve heard against this is that they might as well get the painful procedure out of the way so he doesn’t remember it. Just because the grown man doesn’t remember the pain doesn’t mean it never was experienced. When I die (and dead is what I’ll be for most of time), I won’t remember all the pain of my life today so in the grand scheme of things, I shouldn’t really give a fuck about the toe I stubbed yesterday. Why do I care what happens to me today? That’s because the present is important to all of us, babies with a sore and bleeding penis included.
The only reason I was circumcised was to sort out my phimosis once and for all when other procedures did not work. I come from Britain, so it’s likely different, but I was more concerned that being circumcised would make me different than the other way round. Why have so many people being circumcised here? Quite surprising.
I personally recoil at the thought of doing it to babies/kids. Seems a bit perverse to my mind, sorry if that offends anyone. Let them choose.
As I noted upthread, the anti-cancer effects of circumcision are apparently only applicable to neonatal circumcision and being circumcised in adult life has little effect.
You might think that this isn’t enough benefit to warrant neonatal circumcision but, if one is leaning towards having it done for health reasons, they should be aware of the full range of health implications including diminished returns for delayed circumcision.
My understanding is that it is a result of military circumcision during WWI and II. Societally circumcision was already becoming a marker of higher SES and was being culturally associated with being “clean” - American physicians at the time were very convinced of the medical benefits and military being what it was in that day imposed circumcision upon many soldiers as adults. Those men came home, have not enjoyed having the procedure done as an adult, and decided that they want their newborn boys to avoid having to have procedure done as an adult - circumcision rates in America went from about 25% to over 60% in a generation and became American norm.
I just wanted to come back to this thread and thank you all for sharing your opinions and experiences with us - in the end, we didn’t get baby Nathan circumcised, although not for any lofty ideal. As an elective procedure, circumcsision is not covered by our medical aid, and as we have just finished renovating our house and with Pixie on maternity leave, we just couldn’t afford the R1000 (approx $125) it would have cost us. We were probably leaning in that direction anyway, but this was the final shove we needed to help us decide…
Honestly, I don’t know the best answer to this, but as a grown man with a penis, there is NO WAY ON EARTH I’m gonna let someone take a knife to it.
I am circumcised. If that turns out to be the best thing (health wise or sex wise), great, and I’m grateful my parents made the right choice.
But if I wasn’t circumcised, and it turns out that I would be better off circumcised, it just wouldn’t happen. Unless it was a matter of life and death – and maybe not even then.
So – that stuff about “let the child decide later…” – just be aware there will be a VERY strong bias against voluntary later, IMO.
Actually, I’m gonna do a thread asking if anyone’s got it done voluntarily.
Ethically, it’s all the same to me - circ, don’t circ, very little chance it will make a difference in the kid’s life, his sex life, his body image, ect. However, if you choose to circ, PLEASE MAKE SURE THAT THE DOC NUMBS THE SITE! We’ve got a doc at my hospital who does circumcisions without numbing because he doesn’t think it matters. *Insist *on numbing. It does matter.
-signed,
Nurse who almost fainted while watching a circumcision.
Edit to add - the doc who does the circs without numbing doesn’t usually mention it to the parents. Talk to the doc beforehand.
Edit to add that I somehow skipped the OP replying two posts above me. Go me.
I’ve known several men who had the misfortune to require penis surgery of one sort or another (from circumcision to what was essentially reconstruction) as adults and while none of them were at all happy about the situation, apparently all were in enough distress from the problem at hand to go under the knife, and in some cases they were begging for it, as being constantly in pain from their genitals had become intolerable. I think that if you were in the same situation you’d rather quickly come to some accommodation with the idea.
If you aren’t willing to do it to your adult self why would it be OK to do it to an infant?
I’m often brought to tears whenever I think how much marginally better having an orgasm would be if I wasn’t mutilated as a child. To rectify this I’ve begun to tape weights to my shaft and liberally apply moisturizing lotions to my penis. I feel like an outcast, a weirdo…like I’m less of a man. I’m not normal, and I blame my parents for that. If circumcision has done anything positive in my life, it probably enabled me to study more as a teen. Otherwise I would’ve been doing homework in 15 minute intervals like the kids in Europe.
This always struck me as an unconvincing argument. After all, there are other cases in which parents medically intervene in their kid’s bodies in ways those same kids would probably not do as adults - think of cosmetic orthodontia. It is a lot easier to do when the child is young and not yet fully developed. Why would one wait untill the teeth had all grown in, and then put on the braces? At that point in life orthodontic intervention would be a more serious business.
Similarly, in the case of circumcision, the adult penis is not the same as an infants’, and waiting for the organ to grow to its adult state isn’t the same as not waiting. To give a basic example, the health benefits alleged for infant circumcision are more significant than those alleged for adult circumcision.
The “wait until they are adult and then they will decide” isn’t a real option, it is the equivalent of ‘don’t do it’. The implied moral censure (that parents have no business making such decisions on behalf of their infants) is I think unjustified, as the moral imperative of parenting is precisely to make such decisions - based on the best interests of the child. To my mind, any parent who evaluates the evidence and makes a decision that is within the realm of reasonableness is beyond reproach on these grounds - an certainly infant male circumcision isn’t outside the realm of the reasonable.
Yeah, but you’re talking about undergoing one type of penis pain to relieve another type of penis pain. That, I could do. BUT, subject my penis to a knoke just to avoid dying??? Er, not so sure…
Maybe not you, but there are forums on the internet where perfectly healthy adult men with completely functional penises have subjected them to* >cough< *modification FAR more radical that mere circumcision. Apparently for their own amusement. Without anesthesia. Which makes me cross my legs and wince, even if I am a girl. :eek:
I’ve known adults who got orthodontic braces in their 30’s and 40’s. If they had children with equally crooked teeth I could see them getting the kids braces early. In other words, it’s something adults willingly undergo, so imposing it on younger people isn’t so outrageous. Also, adults getting braces for their kids frequently had them and remember having them as well, so they know exactly what they are subjecting their children to.
Whereas we have had a few men chime in here that, barring medical issues, they would NOT subject their adult selves to circumcision – in which case how can they justfiy subjecting a baby to the procedure without clear medical need?
What these studies say is that there is no difference in glans sensitivity between circumcised and non-circumcised men. From my experience actual sexual intercourse is more pleasurable with a foreskin than without.
Did you actually open up more than one of those links? From the first:
So no, that is not what “these studies say”; that is what one of those studies said. Of course your mileage may vary and personal anecdotes of course are almost so much more convincing than scientific studies published in a peer reviewed journal.