Eve’s “Are You Jewish?” thread reminded me of a question I’ve had for awhile. Excuse me in advance for this display of ignorance (but if not here, where? If not now, when? )
I understand that Jewish men are circumcised. I’ve seen references --either direct or oblique – that circumcision is considered an identifying sign of Jewishness in men. I.E. “I didn’t know Bob was Jewish until I saw him in the steam room.” <wink wink>
I thought that most men are circumcised these days. If this is true then doesn’t circumcision cease to be a Jewish identifier? Or, am I a complete dolt and Jewish Circumcision is an entirely different thing?
No, you’re not wrong. In modern America, most people are circumcised, and I have no reason to think the product looks any different on non-Jews than on Jews.
However, I think it’s less prevalent in Europe, and less than a century ago, that’s where most Jews lived.
Out in here California it’s about 50% of the general public… also, there is a support group for Jews that aren’t circumsized.
So while most Jewish boys are still circumsized, not all are, and while many boys in general are being circumsized, it’s pretty evenly divided… at least out here in the far west.
I should add that as far as being an identifier of Jewish versus non-Jewish men it’s intersting to note that many Arabic cultures also are into circumcision. Perhaps in the past it could have been used as some kind of identifier… but that certainly hasn’t been the case for a while.
In western cultures it became popular 100 years ago for “health” reasons. There’s a huge debate about whether there is any health reason for it and there is a backlash against it (including men who want their foreskins reinstated… however that might be done).
I think it’s mostly done now based on what the dad looks like so that junior won’t feel weird about the way he looks in the mirror. If dad’s cut… so is the kid.
Some say circumcision make sex better… some say it make it worse. Who knows? Having been in enough Gyms and health clubs in my life I can tell you that it’s no big deal for most men since in either case they don’t know what they’re missing!
My main point is that there seems to be enough variety of men (Jewish, Arabic, Christian, etc., etc.) circumcised to limit the effectiveness of circicumcision as an identifier of Jewishness (if that is a word).
So, why do people still make references to this as if it were valid (see steam room example in my OP)?
Because old jokes tend to stick around, and also because while not only Jews are circumsized, circumsison has become identified with Jews more than it’s been identified with any other group. It’s like if I asked you “Name an animal that’s not kosher”, you’re going to say “a pig”. You’re not going to say “a shrimp”.
FYI: I have here a pamphlet entitled “Information for Health Care Providers When Dealing with a Muslim Patient” by Shahid Athar, MD of the Islamic Medical Association of North America. It says that “Circumcision of male infants is recommended.” I believe the practice is mentioned in the Qur’an.
Perhaps the Abrahamic cultures/religions inhereted the practice from the ancient Egyptians, who practiced it on grounds of cleanliness.
When I went through junior high and high school (1960’s and 70’s) —also in CA, Dolphinboy— 100% of us guys were circumcised. I never saw anyone who wasn’t. Until I had Sex Ed in the 8th grade, I’d never heard of circumcision (and I did have Jewish classmates).
But if for the last 100 years half of the pigs have been kosher, then perhaps that would cease to be accurate.
Although I do see your point that it is an association of habit based on out dated concepts (or perhaps based on something that was true in the past but has ceased to be true today).
Okay, (prepare for restatement of position) Out here in California 50% of MEN are thought to be circumsized (I never peformed a study but somebody has) and my experiences through life (I was born and raised out here) tends to bear out these numbers although the pendulum has certainly swung in the last 30 years from nearly every BOY being circumsized when I was a kid to not nearly as many being automatically cut these days.
Back to the OP…
My WAG is that the idea that Jewish boys are circumsized came about when there was a huge disparity between the “haves” and “have nots”… the point is that that disparity has pretty much disappeared these days… at least in some places.
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