I think Kryten from red Dwarf explains it better than I could when he says:
I can only imagine that not everyone perceives it as such an unimportant issue as you do.
My point is that it should not be necessary to prove that irrevocably altering another human being’s body will cause severe harm and pain to that human being to cause it to not be done.
Those who want to do the irrevocable alteration should have to provide a clear, compelling, scientifically backed reason for doing such a thing.
That ‘It’s really not so bad, so why not?’ defense does not wash with me.
Am I some kind of freak? I think the uncut ones are far, far more attractive.
And I tend to believe that when you’re talking about a permanent change to someone else’s body, it should never, ever be done for reasons that are ‘trivial.’
I remember seeing on the Discovery Channel a case about a little boy infant whose penis was burned off during a botched circumcision, leading doctors to advise his family to raise him as a girl, and pretty much a lifetime of torment until he finally found out as an adult that he was born a boy, and is now living as a man but still deformed.
Blasphemy! The circumcised ones are, eh, I suppose alright to look at. The uncircumcised ones are beautiful.
Because I consider the removal of unconsenting people’s body parts to be a pretty serious issue, no matter what part of their body it is.
I’ve no problem if parents wish to do this to their children. As has been said, parent make far more significant decisions (and disasters) on behalf of their children. I’ve no problem if it’s a cultural thing either. Those parents can either square their decision with their children if and when the subject comes up, or live with the consequences.
But it does annoy me when people say the decision was made purely on medical grounds, when the medical reasons are spurious, avoidable, negliable, questionable and sexist.
Given an entity of society with a common practice of cutting of the end of the noses of infants in the name of beauty.
Whose business it it of yours/us to dictate to them that they must cut off the earlobes instead??
Barbaric practices abound around the world, and it will continue to be so as long as you/we do not TEACH them a better way. Coercion doesn’t work.
I feel obliged to say this, but be aware that I do so knowing that it is in poor taste.
How you doin’?
~ Isaac
PS I hate myself now.
What’s the basis for all these assertions as to the comparative aesthetic popularity of the two options? Has Gallup actually interrupted people’s dinners for this, or what?
Well hello there!
And uh, don’t be hating yourself.
</side track>
I can’t help but notice that no-one has commented on why this issue is more important that the “teeth” issue I raised earlier.
So - so you feel the same about cosmetic pediatric orthodontia?
[I note that there have been many threads here and elsewhere about the evils of circumcision, but few or none about the evils of cosmetic orthodontia - and wonder why].
Because cleft palattes and cleft lips cause problems with speech and the ability to eat.
Having a foreskin doesn’t hamper the functionality of a penis.
OK then - yeah maybe cosmetic orthodontic work is wrong when the child doesn’t consent. However, at least the child is generally old enough to talk and if they really hate it that much then maybe a parent should listen to them and stop it. After all if it’s not affecting their health then why should you pressurise them into going through with it? (Like any cosmetic surgery). However, I think most kids, even at young ages like 8 or 9 have a sense of pride/anxiety about the way they look and I think many go through this dental surgery willingly. Some surgery is not as painful other surgery and parents need to work with the child and ultimately respect their wishes on this. If my child had crooked teeth it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest unless it bothered them!
I take your point but it hasn’t really changed my mind.
Also regarding the cultural thing - yes I don’t care! I still say it’s wrong. Just like any other cruel fashion/ritual that has gone out of practice - like the binding of little girls’ feet in China. Sure girls with big feet may have been laughed at, mocked, failed to find husbands but someone has to take a stand sometime.
If it’s not broken don’t ‘fix’ it.
I remember being oddly relieved at the thought of not having to deal with this decision when I had my daughter. My second child was a son though, so I couldn’t escape it altogether.
We didn’t circumcise him and this created far more hoopla than I expected. When I had my daughter people asked things like ‘what’s her name?’ and ‘how much did she weigh?’ but with my son people asked ‘are you going to/did you circumcise him?’ or they simply assumed we had. Some people were very unhappy with me for making this choice. I had perfect strangers huffily ask me “Well, what does his pediatrician have to say about that?”
Depending on my mood at the time I often told the snippiest of my critics that one of the reasons circumcision became so popular in America is it was seen as a cure for masturbation. I didn’t think that was a valid reason to perform surgery on my son. I read that lovely tidbit on a few of the links provided in the other circumcision threads and will dig them up if people want me to but I don’t know if the indexing is done and don’t want to overtax the hamsters.
When I wasn’t as defensive, I explained that his pediatrician helped us make our decision to not circumcise. He does not advocate circumcision but will support parents with whatever decision they make. We discussed risks and benefits and my husband and I decided that putting our son through what we saw as unnecessary surgery with small, but real, risks with almost equally small benefits or so our son could look like daddy didn’t seem right. We plan to explain the difference if he asks by telling him that while they thought this was a good idea when daddy was a baby they changed their minds by the time you were born. We do not have any compelling religious reason for having this done so that was a non issue for us.
The threads on the SDMB about circumcision also helped us in our choice. Where else can you find so many people willing to discuss and share and provide interesting and relevant articles? And I read the book referenced above about the boy who lost his penis in a botched circumcision and was raised as a girl.
I plan to take every decision regarding permanent physical changes to either of my children very seriously. To answer the orthodontics question: from speaking to my dentist many children have unnecessary things done too early to be of any real benefit. If the child is old enough to be having cosmetic orthodontics done then I will most certainly involve them in the decision and if they are opposed to it then it will not be done. Should one of them break a tooth or have a cavity those things will be fixed as they are health issues.
Now, that’s just plain not addressing the issue.
Clearly, in some cases orthodontic work is necessary for functional medical reasons. Just like in some, rare cases circumcision is medically necessary for penis function.
However, I was specifically addressing cosmetic orthodontia. Performed, like circumcision, on children who do not consent, because their parents want the work done. The main difference, of course, is that unlike circumcision, the painful procedures of orthodontia are perfomed on kids who are old enough to remember the suffering.
Hands up, everyone who had orthodontic work for purely cosmetic reasons as a child, without fuction-imparing cleft palattes and lips.
[Raises hand]
Hands up everyone who had such work, without their consent, because their parents wanted them to.
[Raises hand]
Hands up everyone who clearly remembers the agony of this procedure.
[Raises hand]
I suspect than many, many of us out there are in the same boat.
So - where are the protests about orthodontia?
My point is that it is odd indeed that the rituals/cosmetic surgery of other cultures should generate so much well-meaning debate, but the cosmetic surgery of your own culture should generate … none at all. Even when there is no logical difference between them on the point that matters (requiring consent).
Sure, an 8 year old could give consent. As far as I remember, it was never even considered.
Then maybe you should take it up with your parents.
You’ve raised a valid point but I still don’t think it proves circumcision is OK. It simply just raises another issue/ area where people should examine their consciences.
If people were to concede to you completely and say ‘OKMalthus is right. We really can’t defend our anti-circumcision stance any longer because of the fact that kids are sometimes forced to get cosmetic orthdontic surgery’, then we’d have to say foot-binding’s OK, female circumcision at the age of 12 is OK (which many Americans seem to abhor), someone getting their kid a nose-job because they don’t like it’s nose is OK etc. etc. This is destructive and pessimistic reasoning. Progress is made step by step after all.
As I said you have to take a stand somewhere. I’m taking it with circumcision and I WILL think more seriously about the orthodontics thing as well thanks to your raising the point 
(FWIW I’ve had the opposite experience. My teeth are crooked (though not hideously so! 
) from years of sucking my thumb. My parents never did anything about it. Sometimes I wish I had perfect, straight teeth but most of the time I don’t care. In fact I sometimes think it’s cute - so I definitely wouldn’t feel any pressing desire to force my kids to get cosmetic dental treatment if they don’t want it, because the consequences of not having it are not that bad!)
Arrrg! Hamsters ate my post! :mad:
Anyway, I was saying … the matters should be approached on the basis of actual harm; doing so would eliminate the appearence of cultural partiality. On that scale, infant circumcision ranks as a low priority; female genital mutilation ranks as a high priority.
FWIW, I’m opposed to infant circumcision as well as any other cosmetic surgery performed on normal children without their consent. If my kid had awful teeth, I’d do my best to convince him that braces are a good idea, but I wouldn’t permanently alter his body if he were unwilling or unable to agree to it… and I sure wouldn’t put him at risk of a botched circumcision just for cosmetic reasons or because of the trivial alleged medical benefits.
But honestly, I can’t get worked up about circumcision. A foreskin is pretty useless. The loss is mostly symbolic: “We made you, we own you, and we will unmake any part of you that we don’t think you need.”
Also FWIW, I’ve never had a complaint about my intact status. I can’t imagine a situation in school where other guys would’ve had a chance to scope out my penis, or how they could’ve teased me about it without sounding gayer than yuletide apparel. My girlfriends either haven’t cared or have enjoyed playing with it (which is fine with me!).
I was circumcised as a child, and I’m glad. I think they look better that way. It may be a shallow trait, but were I with a guy and he was uncut, it would put me off the idea of sex with him. Uncircumcised penises look dirty and misshapen to me. If I ever have a son, he will be circumcised.
tanookie said
Now that’s a good pediatrician.
This is the one that really throws me. Judging by how much I use my foreskin when I masturbate, I don’t see how it’s useless or doesn’t affect sexual response.