I recently got in a somewhat heated argument with a co-worker and fellow scientist about whether she’s going to circumcise her soon-to-be son. She’s someone who rejects every conservative tradition in society that is the least bit oppressive (she didn’t get married because it’s too patriarchal) and is in general extremely secular and driven by rational analysis rather than convention (to a fault a lot of times).
The thing that pissed me off is that despite all this supposedly independent thinking she’s going to have her son circumcised because she and her husband Jewish; I couldn’t get her to define whether she actually has a spiritual faith in the Jewish tradition or if she means culturally Jewish. In any case, she almost never goes to synagogue, religion basically plays no part in her life, and she readily rejects all kinds of other Jewish traditions. So how can she justify this?
I’m sure this is more significant for me since I have an 18-month old son of my own, plus I went to med school and have seen circumcisions performed. This is not a trivial cosmetic procedure. While I surely wouldn’t claim that it’s mutilation on the scale of what happens to women in the middle east/Africa, it’s inflicting a severe injury on a very important part of the body. I guarantee that it will seem barbaric to people in a few generations.
Why are people so tolerant of circumcision in this society, indeed so willing to do it when other equally severe and illogical behavior is rejected as out-of-date? How can we be so willy-nilly about this (pun intended)?
Oh – to circumvent a medical debate, I don’t have a cite offhand (good thing I’m not in GD!), but having asked this question to a pediatric urologist at the University of Washington when I did a rotation, the medical evidence is a near perfect balance – plusses and minuses on both side, no basis for a medical recommendation.
Well, I come from a family where the males are of mixed circumcision status. I don’t really see any reason for it, but I understand that since it hit some sort of fashion recently, mommies want their little boys to look like the other little boys.
If I had been circumcised, though, it would open up my opportunities for Prince Alberts, though.
My opinion is that it’s a medical decision that should be made by the parents after seriously considering the pros and cons, discussing the issue with a doctor, and weighing up their own medical, religious, and cultural concerns. I am also of the opinion that your coworker has no obligation to “justify” her family’s private decision to you or anyone else. I’m guessing it wasn’t her who brought the subject up?
You’re right, I asked, but more out of curiosity originally. I think what got to me was the hypocrisy of how her (in my view) knee-jerk decision contrasted with her agonizing at length about inane things like whether finding out about the baby’s sex beforehand would be giving in to society’s sexist demand to define a person by their gender, and her playing the religion card even though she’s never shown a hint of respecting Jewish traditions otherwise.
Then, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I think circumcision is simply wrong, and that it is appropriate for me to judge someone for mutilating (however mildly) their baby.
No, there isn’t any medical evidence that would suggest that routine infant circumcision is warranted, but you don’t know her family’s particular medical history (which she may not really want to disclose to you). It’s possible for her infant, it’s a reasonable decision. Also, religious and cultural traditions do influence this decision. You may feel she has not sufficiently proven her case to you, but maybe she doesn’t really feel like getting into her family’s personal reasons with you, a coworker. Maybe she isn’t particularly religious, but her husband is. Maybe as she is starting a family, her religion is becoming more important to her. Who knows?
My dad, who is not circumcised, had a lot of trouble related to that fact when he was in his 60s (he also had prostate trouble at around the same time - I do not know if the two were related). Some type of recurrent infection, from what I could gather. His doctor actually suggested he be circumcised at that late date! :eek:
So based on my sample size of one, if I did have a son, I’d probably go ahead and do it. Every other male whose circumcision status is known to me is circumcised and no one’s ever mentioned a problem with it to me.
And count me in with the group who feels that that sort of thing is a private decision and that what anyone else thinks doesn’t really matter, because it doesn’t affect them.
I’m torn on the subject and if I have a boy at some point, I don’t know what to do. On one hand, it is unnatural and mostly pointless. Having been circumcised at an age too young to remember, I’m not traumatized by it, but I wish I could have made the decision.
OTOH, it is difficult enough for a boy going through puberty to deal with showering after gym as it is. I wouldn’t want to make things any more difficult by making him appear different than the other boys.
I guess it is something I’ll have to figure out if/when I have a boy.
What’s your opinion on circumcision? Once was enough, thanks!
Seriously, though, besides religious needs, there is also the idea of “why do I look different from daddy?” Kids wind up seeing their parents naked at some point (usually as you’re stepping out of the shower). It’s easy to explain that someday they’ll grow hair but if they ask why you are cut when they are not or vice versa it will get more complicated. A boy does not want to think he’s different or unusual.
When my son was born we decided to have him circumcised. The doctor used something called a Bell clamp (I think. It’s been a long time) that caused the foreskin to fall off at home after a few days. The doctor said the Bell leaves a cleaner look than the surgical method. There was no bleeding, no pain that we could tell, he peed just fine and frequently ( and with great gusto, hitting walls, people, plants, pets). Sure enough, after a few days a little blackened piece fell of, smaller than the umbilical stump that dropped a few days later. Now he is the proud owner of a streamlined wang.
As for medical benefits, I know there are pros and cons but recent studies did show some benefits to getting the little ones smoothed out. http://media.www.dailynebraskan.com/media/storage/paper857/news/2007/01/12/News/Circumcision.May.Lower.Mens.Risk.Of.Getting.Hiv-2628635.shtml?sourcedomain=www.dailynebraskan.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com
I don’t want to hijack the thread because IANAD and I remember some f-wad who had ranted about how awful circs are in an old thread. Ultimately, though, the decision is up to the parent.
As an aside: what about parents “mutilating” their baby girls by getting their ears pierced long before the kid could voice an opinion one way or the other? There is no medical benefit to getting it done, it is painful and can get infected if not properly taken care of. It always makes me think the parents (usually the mom) is treating the baby as a dress-up doll. Sorry, personal gripe. Never mind.
I agree that this also seems like a parent exceeding their authority over their kid’s body. But you have to admit that getting a hole in your earlobe is a lot less severe to me than getting your foreskin cut off.
I certainly don’t want to sound like the aforementioned f-wad. Lots (most) of the people I know and love have decided in favor of circumcisions. It’s just begun to really seem odd to me how widely-accepted it is, given how rather greusome an unnecessary it is.
I don’t like it, and I think it’s unecessary, but I also figure it’s the decision of every parent to make. I may not agree with them, but it’s their child.
On a side note, my son isn’t circumcised, and is the ONLY one in my immediate family, extended family, and my husband’s family not to be circumcised. We have gotten more crap for our decision than we EVER expected, even though I spent months researching it, we spent months discussing it, and we are very comfortable with our decision. My MIL and mom tag-teamed me when I was 8 months pregnant to yell at me about how we had to get it done (when I asked for concrete evidence on WHY we had to get it done, all I got was “You just do!”). I was NOT happy.
Take that last part a step farther–ask her if she’s going to have a bris performed, or just have the kid circumcised.
If the former, she may be more Jewish than you think she is. If the latter, then she’s rationalizing.
I’m also wondering–if your medical references indicated that the pros and cons are balanced, why do you feel that future generations will think of this as a barbaric procedure? Couldn’t they just as easily look back and consider not having it done a barbaric thing?
Should have added: no bris, they want the ‘professionals’ to do it. Thanks for reminding me – it was an important aspect of why I was annoyed.
The reason I think it will be considered barbaric is because it is mutilation and it is unnecessary. Not outright dangerous (on balance, though there are as many horror stories from circs as their are from uncircs), but it’s a very strange modification of what I and, I think, future generations will view as a very well-made-as-is organ.
I have no problem with it. I readily admit that a lot of that has to do with the fact that I am and I think it looks better. (I’m gay for those that don’t know me)
That’s what gets me – how arbitrary peoples’ feelings are about this. If it’s a covenant with your god that’s one thing, no more (or only a little more) illogical than lots of other things people do in the name of faith. But I think so many people do it just because that’s what’s done. You’re cutting off a large, highly sensitive chunk of skin from the penis! This is not something to be taken lightly! And dammit, it’s not your body, it’s his!
Honestly, this was a tough decision for me, when I found out my baby was to be a boy. I have never (honestly, in 35 years) seen an uncircumcised adult human. Oh, before the offers flood in – I don’t really want to, thanks.
I did a lot of research and found (as has been stated) that the benefits/risks are pretty even. Mostly, my decision to have my son circumcised was based on not wanting to have him be the weird kid in the locker room. Oh, and the whole cleaning possibly icky stuff from a foreskin on a baby thing. I am a wuss, what can I say?
Interesting – I read an old Salon article (can’t find it offhand, sorry) where a father-to-be surveyed women and gay men about their feelings on foreskins. The former generally said ‘ew’ if they mostly had had circed guys and ‘whatever’ if they had had both. But gay men across the board said ‘gimme foreskin!’
This brings up a related issue though, kind of weird to even fathom, but I’m not dooming my kid’s prospects for oral sex later am I??
I’m no expert but I’ve read the pro’s and cons and looked at the studies regarding disease prevention and all that and, like a lot of people said, found it to be roughly 50/50. However, one of the major “cons” always revolves around sexual sensitivity. As a circumcised male, my only true data point is that I enjoy sex whole bunches, even with the foreskin gone. With that piece of the debate out of the way, I chose on the side of potential medical benefits for my son.
Like everyone else, I’ll give the standard “It’s the parents’ choice” and I’d certainly understand why anyone might decide not to do it.
Litoris, just an FYI from the mom of an uncircumcised boy - there’s really no ‘icky’ stuff to clean. I clean it like I would clean a circumcised penis (my nephew is circumcised, as are all of my younger cousins, and I’ve changed all of their diapers). You are NEVER supposed to retract the foreskin if it hasn’t yet retracted naturally. When he gets older and his foreskin naturally retracts, his dad and I will teach him how to retract it himself and clean it, just as we would teach him to clean any other part of his body.
I think there’s a common misconception that you’re supposed to retract the foreskin and clean underneath it, but until it retracts on its own, it’s pretty much self-cleaning.