circumcision

The master speaks
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a940128.html
I, for one, coming from a country where circumcision is unusual, do find the practice somewhat repulsive. To put a child through a surgical procedure, albeit minor, for no real benefit, seems crazy.

Doctor Jackson, I would contend that your doctor recommended circumcision for cultural reasons, rather than medical. Chances are her husband and male family members (:D) were circumcised, so she views it as normal. I think Cecils article makes it clear that any claims about the medical benefits are dubious.

In response to TVAA:
In my own experience hygiene is not a problem. Roll back, wash, roll forward. Easy.

Following my own anology and Doctor Jackson’s “decision process” I’m off to chop off my offspring’s toes. Studies have shown this to be a 100% preventative cure for in-growing toenails.

Toenail cutting is “also an issue” for fully-toed children. I realize that it’s “vanishingly rare”, but those toes can go septic if badly cut. So I think that my in no way silly decision will “virtually eliminate any risk of future disease with a simple, safe procedure.”

I’m not sure how they’ll feel about this, but since I’m not asking their permission and they’ll not ever remember having them, I guess they’re not going to miss them.

:rolleyes: You can defend circumcision if you wish, but let’s just quit pretending the medical excuses have any sensible grounding in medical fact, shall we?

Or even analogy.

Ah, so it’s you and London_Calling who’ve been channeling the illlustrious JDT. Glad you decided to come clean!

Oh, and Smeghead, too. The Tug-Ahoy reference slipped right past me.

My parents are Catholic (though not die-hard or anything). I was born in Mexico and left “as is”, but my younger brother was born in the states and had his yoohoo scalped.

I finally had the nerve to get a clipping myself at the age of 31. Surprisingly, there was no pain. Just a bit of discomfort during the procedure (the occasional instances when the anesthetic wasn’t enough to mask all sensation, it would fee like getting a small paper cut).

And waking up in the morning for the following couple of weeks was NOT something I enjoyed.

Even the first of about five or six numbing shots to the base of the penis wasn’t too bad. Although a Valium beforehand would’ve been nice!

In comparison, Lasik eye surgery was more psychologically uncomfortable (even with a Valium), though that procedure involved little to no physical discomfort.

Can you provide the citation that demonstrates that phimosis afflicts all uncircumcized men or even the majority?

Does anyone know the rate of melanoma developing on the ear lobes?
A case could be made for removing them neonatally to prevent skin cancer,it would make at least as much sense as circumcision.

Yes parents are your legal guardians and all that but I feel that it is up to the actual child.

It is their body and if later in life they wish to be circumcised, all be it more painfully, than it is up to them.

I think it is completely irresponsible for a parent to take such a decision when it will never affect them and it will affect the child for the rest of their life. Who are they to take that decision with a body that does not belong to them?

The “medical grounds” for circumcision are practically non existent. It “may” help against an already extremely rare disease. Come on. Maybe I should get my head amputated, I’ve heard its great against headaches, colds, eye ear and nose problems and you can save a fortune on hair cuts. Let’s all go and be decapitated.

It is a pointless procedure.

Sigh. I’m so glad some of you have the world all figured out. Everything is black and white, no shades of gray. Must be nice to live in that world. In the world I where I live there is something called research. Sometimes it conflicts, making decisions much tougher. Want examples of this research? Gladly:

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/g2601/0010/2601001036/p1/article.jhtml

http://www.meb.uni-bonn.de/cancer.gov/CDR0000062897.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/circumcision990113.html

So what the studies say to me, especially the last one which compares opposing studies, is that there IS a correlation between circumcision and penile cancer and that medical evidence FAVORS circumcision even though the risk is statistically small.

As to the scare tactic that the “loss of nerve endings” crowd gets so worked up about, I quote further from the ABC News article:

Read the second paragraph in that quote again. While the “loss of sensation” argument sounds logical, it is not borne out by facts. I have seen several studies that support Dr. Kogan’s observations, some of which have been brought up on this board before in other circumcision threads. I have yet to see a study that finds any loss of sexual pleasure in circumcised men. Another study:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/453301 (free registration required)

Stop with the scare tactics and stick with the facts or move on over to IMHO.

Doctor Jackson, are you aware how incredibly rare penile cancer is even in a uncircumized population? I’d wager even with modern surgical techniques you are sevral orders more likely to suffer a botched circumiscion than get penile cancer. Even then it is generally recognised that there is no relation between penile cancer and being uncircumized:

"

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Ther is no justifiable medical reason to carry out this procedure

All very interesting Doctor Jackson, but there’s nothing there that convinces that surgery is called for.

As has been pointed out plenty of times in this thread; just because cutting something off stops it being a remotely possible cause of a rare problem does not make it generally acceptable medical practice. Studies prove people with no feet rarely get bunions. Is this an argument for cutting your feet off?

Whether it has an impact on loss of sensation is hardly the point. But you can’t possibly be arguing that not having something that is a natural and functional part of the male human body, having been so for millions of years, is just as good as having it?

And the only scare tactic I see here is in your argument. Others say; “don’t do this, don’t worry”. You say; “cut it off or risk cancer!”

Doctor Jackson, surely teaching the kid to wash his knob properly would have been easier…?

…roll back, roll forward, roll back, roll forwar…OOOOHHH!!!

…roll back, roll forward, roll back, roll forwar…OOOOHHH!!!:smiley:

“Creation science”, meet “circumcision science”. I’m sure you both will find you you have a great deal in common.

Step 1: Enshrine cultural prejudice.
Step 2: Cherry-pick data to further enshrine cultural prejudice.
Step 3: Profit.

Are you really trying to compare bunions to cancer?

The AAP does not recommend routine infant circumcision. That’s based on careful review of the research. There are a few pros to having it done (reduced risk of infection under the foreskin being the major issue), and a more than equal number of minuses. The issues that are ‘solved’ by circumcision can all be managed by behavioral changes (proper hygeine), and the issues that are ‘caused’ by circumcision cannot be managed by behavioral changes, nor can they always be repaired. Therefore, since one side can be moderated by personal choice, and the other cannot, there is no contest. Routine application of the procedure is simply not recommended by the main medical group in charge of determining medical practice in pediatric care in the USA. Individual decision based on family medical history, and even cultural/religious reasons are still considered acceptable to the AAP. Just not routine, standard, baseline approach.

Medical history decisions make sense. And deeply held religious ones I can also comprehend. I just don’t get the ‘look like dad’ one. It just isn’t that hard to explain the difference.

Oh, and by the way, a minor surgical tweak fixes phimosis if anti-inflammatories do not (Preputial plasty, basically loosen the muscle band if it tends to contract too much or is subject to repeated inflammation). But most of the time, phimosis is an inflammatory reaction that reduces the stretchiness of the skin - some topical cremes (more rolling things back and forth, ooh!), and you’re golden again. No need for major surgery.

We do not cut off girls’ breasts at birth, despite breast cancer being vastly more common than penile cancer. Why not? It would prevent the problem, and save vast numbers of lives. And there are alternatives for breastfeeding. Even if it were easy to do, do you think we’d approve? What’s the difference? They’re both sexual parts, both involved in procreative activities, both part of the person’s ‘esthetic sense of self’… They’ll never miss them if they don’t have them.

Heck there are even ethics questions about pre-emptive mastectomy in families that carry specific genes involved in breast cancer. How much more so should there be ethics questions about cutting off a functional body part in infancy without consent, without any kind of evidence-based determination of who should have that part removed and who should not?