Civil Wars

Based on Alessan’s post in this thread…

Alessan calls the Confederacy “a bunch of yahoos who thought they had the right to secede from their own country, and killed a lot of people before they were proven wrong.”

What makes the Confederacy different from the Founding Fathers, arguably another bunch of yahoos who decided to secede from their country? Well, aside from the obvious - the FF won, the Confederacy lost.

It seems that the U.S. is often in the business of interfering in foreign civil wars. Ostensibly, our intervention in the Balkans has been largely about stemming a new Holocaust of ethnic cleansing, but we seem to be in the business of recognizing breakaway republics as new states with a “right to self-determination” If you can prove decide to form your own state, it seems that you can count on the U.S. sympathy (East Timor, Chechnya, Taiwan) if not formal recognition (Yugoslav republics, Eritrea).

I recognize that the world has changed quite a bit in the last 230 years, but whatever happened to the right of a state to preserve its sovereignty and integrity, as the U.S. did in the civil war? Is it just a matter of who wins the fight? Should the U.S. be picking the winners and losers in foreign civil conflicts?

Sounds like someone didn’t pay attention in history class. :rolleyes:

Brevity is the soul of wit, not of debate…

The above comment was about the civil war part of the OP. Otherwise, I do shudder every time we get into someone elses business. I mean, when will they gang up on us?

I do think there’s a slight difference between rebelling against a government that has lost its people’s consent to rule, one the one hand, and genocide on the other.

Are you calling the south’s position in the Civil War genocide?

Neither the Revolutionary War nor the Southern secession was started because the government had lost its people’s consent to rule. Both were just rich people believing their rights had been violated – in the case of the Revolution, the rich New England ship owners, and for the South, the slaveowners.

John Adams estimated that only a third of the population was for the revolution, with one third against, and one third neutral. Not really losing “its people’s consent to rule.” There were still a lot of Tories, and the justification for this Revolution couldn’t be considered very good itself by many citizens.

The Seven Year’s War/The French and Indian War, which was started by the American colonists (IIRC, they either started it or encouraged King George to start it because of colonist protection west of the Appalachians) had wiped out the British treasury. They needed something to pay it with, so they asked for some taxes, like the Stamp Act and the tea tax, on the Americans, along with the Quartering Act and the Navigation Act. The Navigation Act only allowed shipping on British ships.

So the rich New England ship owners and newspaper owners got angry. (Not that I wouldn’t blame them) Then they rebelled against the King along with some popular support (but it was far from unanimous, in several states at various times during and after the Revolution Tories were massacred).

Compare this to the South.

There’s the slavery issue, of course, and the slaveowning Southerners thought that they had a right to keep their “property.” There was also the issue of the tariff. South Carolina had nearly seceded in the Jackson administration because they disagreed with some legislation on tariffs and trade. There was state’s rights, of course, and there was the fact that the South was an entirely different culture than the North. Those all were all considered in the South’s rebellion…it wasn’t just genocide. And from their standpoint, they had pretty good reasons to rebel.

The South thought that their rebellion was justified. The North did not. IMO, both rebellions were justified…but I’m glad they turned out as they did, with the Revolutionaries winning and the South losing and slavery being abolished.

On the foreign intervention issue:

If the French or the British had intervened on the side of the South, as it looked like for a while in late 1861 and early 1862, the South probably would have won, just as the Revolutionaries only won because of the French.

Perhaps I should choose my words more carefully.

Thanks for assuming that I’m a survivor of the American education system. My English is pretty good, isn’t it? In fact, I learned as much about the Civil War in school as you did about Napoleon III. Still, I do read books, so it’s not much of an excuse.

In fact, if you’d examine my statements from the previous thread, you’d see that I’m a victim of removal from context. Barbitu8, in a series of rather haughty comments, was referring to the CSA as an established sovereign state, and to the Federal army in Fort Sumner as an invading force. I was merely presenting the opposite viewm in order to show him that the issue was not nearly as clear cut as he presented it.

So was the Confederacy an independany nation? No - but not because they didn’t have a right to be. They may have honestly thought they had a right to secceed fron the Union, just as Washington honestly thought they had a right to prevent them. It was a legal matter, settled outside the courts. We all know how it ended, but if it had ended otherwise, then yes - the South would have been a sovereign state. But only after the war had ended.

That’s the thing with this kind of conflict - the whole purpose is to define nationhood. Just like a horse race, you can’t declare anything until it’s all over. So, for example, the U.S. may have declared inbdependence in 1776, but it was not a true nation until the final British surrender. War is a transitory condition, a state of “all bets are off”. A truly independent nation has to exist in some sort of peace.

Your English is fantastic, and you probably grasp more about U.S. history than many Americans. I didn’t start this GD to pick on Alessan, but because he said some stuff that made me think. No worries!

See, this is what interests me. Did the Confederacy have the “right” to secede from the union? The way Macedonia and Slovenia had a “right” to secede from Yugoslavia (I’m deliberately choosing non-bloody examples from the Balkans)? The way Eritrea had a “right” to secede from Ethiopia?

Where is the balance point between the right of a group of people to self-determination and the right of a state to protect its sovereignty?

Are these “rights” solely a matter of who wins in the end?

That’s what Alessan seems to be saying here:

If you secede, and you win, then you were just exercising your right to self-determination. If part of your country secedes, and you successfuly stop them, then you were just exercising your right to preserve your unity.

So why is the U.S. in the position of supporting some independence movements and not others? If the “right” to self-determination and the “right” to preserve the integrity of your borders are only a matter of who wins in the end, who are we to pick the winners and losers?

"Where is the balance point between the right of a group of people to self-determination and the right of a state to protect its sovereignty?

Are these “rights” solely a matter of who wins in the end?"

Wowza. There is no line IMO. No matter the outcome of a civil war, it truly is a matter of force in the end. Governments have no other tool at their disposal. This is not to agree with government force, just to say that there isn’t much else. Its a distasteful matter, to me.

The South did indeed have a right to split off, and the north had a right to try and stop it. The point of a state’s existence isn’t necessarily to let everyone have freedom etc, contrary to what many people think of the constitution. I don’t think the founding fathers were deluded into thinking they could create a state of freedom; in the end, it always comes down to a government saying, “Look, guys, I’m drawing the line here.” And the dissenters say, “Yeah, well we’re drawing the line HERE!” In an area where freedom of expression is largely tolerated if not encouraged I’m suprised we haven’t had a few more civil wars, more terrorism, and so on. It is largely a testament of our government’s tolerance and where it does choose to draw the line.

I never presented the issues as clear cut. I never used “haughty” comments, but merely trying to prove my point. The OP in the GQ was “When did the phrase ‘the War of Northern Aggression’ arise.” I posed to the TM this possibility: “I submit to you that 'the War of Northern Aggression’was not a misnomer.” And I proceeded to follow that up with the reasoning of many southerners why they considered it northern aggression. It certainly wasn’t clear cut, and I never intended to say that, if in fact I even implied that it was. Just a possibility. It is very difficult to support a position which I don’t even believe in, but I tried to do it, just to present the other side. Some people become closed minded about it and refuse to even entertain the possibility that maybe the South has something there.

I raised a question in the GQ which was deleted re the nation of the CSA. If it was not a nation, how did the states lose their statehood? If it was just a blip in the history of the USA with a certain “unpleasantness,” when the war was over why did not the former states in the CSA immediately resume their statehood in the USA?

I don’t think we’re talking about “rights” here, but rather definition. Whether an entity is a nation or not is not a matter of what should be, but rather what is. A group of people may have the right to declare themselves a nation, but that doesn’t make them a nation. A nation must be self ruling, and must be capable of defending its borders from invasion. That’s what I meant with my example of the American Revolution - I believe that they were perfectly in ther right, and I believe that every nation in the world should have supported their cause, and the British should have withdrawn in July '76. However, they were not a sovereign state until Cornwallis surrendered.

So yes, maybe some people should be considered a nation, and maybe we should support them in their endeavor. But they are not an actual nation until they prove to the world that they are - something the Confederacy never did.

There are countries in the world which I believe have no right to exist. But they do exist, so I have to accept them. And there are people in the world who deserve to be free - but they aren’t, so I won’t pretend they are.

As far as the U.S. Civil War goes, I think it would be hard to justify the position that the South had a moral right to secede, but that the slaves did not have a right to rise up in rebellion against the system of slavery. I rather doubt that the Confederates would have agreed with that, though. Admittedly, the slaves hadn’t, by and large, shown much inclination to mass uprising, and Southern apologists for slavery would have probably argued that the second case was absurd, because slavery benefitted both whites and “Negroes”, and the slaves had no reason or desire to revolt, except when they were being misled by wicked Northern propagandists, and so on. I don’t know what the racial dynamics of an independent, aggresively pro-slavery Confederacy would have been. Possibly very ugly.

As to modern secession movements: Actually, the United States has–for very good reason, because there really isn’t a good place to draw the line–been pretty reluctant to recognize breakaway nations. We haven’t recognized Chechnya, for example, nor Tibet (despite all those bumper stickers). East Timor was something of a technicality: arguably, Indonesia’s occupation was illegitimate to start with, so that situation was one of one country invading another country, rather than part of one country seeking independence. (Also, the U.S. actually didn’t do jack for the East Timorese, but rather supported the Indonesian government; we recognize them now because the reality on the ground is that they are independent, which even Indonesia now acknowledges.) In the case of Eritrea, we again recognized something formally acknowledged by both parties. What happened there was that the Eritrean independence movement formed an alliance with anti-government rebels in Ethiopia proper; when the rebel coalition overthrew the old Ethiopian regime, the new Ethiopian government was willing to recognize the independence of their then-friends, the Eritrean nationalists. For us to insist that Eritrea or East Timor were still parts of their old motherlands, when the governments of Ethiopia or Indonesia no longer claimed them, would be pretty silly. As to Taiwan, we never recognized Taiwan as a breakaway new state; rather, we recognized the Nationalist government on Taiwan as the legitimate government of all China. When we established diplomatic ties with the People’s Republic, we severed formal ties with Taiwan. Our official position is still that Taiwan is part of China. In the case of the former Soviet republics, we were actually pretty far behind the curve–George Bush (the elder) was widely seen as being very cautious about the breakup of the Soviet Union. Again, we eventually recognized the facts on the ground, because the U.S.S.R. simply ceased to exist. (The Baltic States were something of a special case since we’d never recognized their incorporation into the U.S.S.R., making them legally more like East Timor in that regard.) Many would argue that both the (elder) Bush and Clinton administrations, whatever rhetoric the latter may have used, were actually very slow to take action in the former Yugoslavia. Again, at some point it was self-evident that the old Yugoslavia just wasn’t there any more. I have seen criticisms of the European and American decision for early recognition of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina; once those republics were recognized, though, then diplomatically speaking it wasn’t a civil war anymore, it was a trans-border international conflict. The argument for early recognition probably would have been that, again, the old Yugoslavia had already de facto collapsed. We still haven’t formally proclaimed recognition of independence for Kosovo, whatever the facts on the ground may be.

I think there’s also a difference between breaking up a country, and the situation with African and Asian de-colonization after World War II, where distant colonies declared themselves independent from countries thousands of miles away, to which they had no real historical or cultural connection, and where the imperial powers wasn’t even claiming that the colonies were part of their unified, sovereign territories. The American colonies did of course have a historical and cultural connection to Great Britain, but they weren’t really legally considered part of a united state, the way England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are; rather, they were more or less autonomous “dependencies”.

“If you can prove decide to form your own state, it seems that you can count on the U.S. sympathy (East Timor, Chechnya, Taiwan) if not formal recognition (Yugoslav republics, Eritrea). I recognize that the world has changed quite a bit in the last 230 years, but whatever happened to the right of a state to preserve its sovereignty and integrity, as the U.S. did in the civil war? Is it just a matter of who wins the fight? Should the U.S. be picking the winners and losers in foreign civil conflicts?”

How come the U.S. gets singled out in all this, as if diplomatic recognition of a foreign state is the same as a trampling imperialist U.S. sending in the Third Fleet to support the new government? :rolleyes:

Admittedly, it’s been a while since my IntLaw class, but IIRC:

  1. every nation sends diplomats to every other nation that it recognizes as a nation, and
  2. recognition is not an imprimatur on the government in power, just a formal recognition that “these are the people we deal with in that territory, since they have effective control there.”

In other words, every nation, big or small, powerful or weak, recognizes other nations or refuses to recognize them. It’s not the U.S. throwing weight around and it’s not an imperialist seal of approval. Tiny nations like Andorra and the Vatican City go around recognizing and not recognizing other nations too, it’s just that people pay more attention to the U.S. decision.

John,

It’s not just a matter of diplomatic recognition (which you describe quite well). Diplomatic recognition is often backed up with military assistance and enormous economic AID packages. Before Kosovo’s fate as an independent state was decided (Sept. 99), USAID started an $8 million project that sent advisors in to set up a tax system, train municipal leaders to become national leaders, and begin the privatization of enterprises - ie, sell off assets of a state that didn’t technically exist. We decided that our diplomatic interest lay with an independent Kosovo and began putting the foundations in place long before diplomatic recognition.

Actually, the United States has not formally recognized the independence of Kosovo. With a post-Milosevic government in Belgrade, I suspect our inclination would actually be more to push for an autonomous Kosovo, and not for full sovereignty, although it’s not at all clear that that can be achieved even with the new government in power.

I’m aware, MEBuckner. But the AID package and the project, under the guise of assisting the UN-led forces there, are real.