Class indicators in USA society?

[bump]

@Green_Bean

Not necessarily. For example, when I went to buy a Polo-brand polo shirt for my brother for Christmas, the ones with the humongous embroidered pony were the same price as the normal ones.* Or more expensive, because a bunch of the normal ones were on sale.

Cheap knockoffs change this equation a bit because they are more likely to loudly show off the fake brand.

I wasn’t saying that the garish ones were cheaper, but rather that in general, the people you see wearing them aren’t well-to-do.

It seems like they serve different roles- for the less well off person, that $75 shirt may be counted among his “nice” clothes, despite being a polo shirt. For the rich guy, that $75 shirt is what he wears when he’s NOT wearing his “nice” or business clothes. It’s his dress-down stuff.

I may be extrapolating a bit much here, but if that $75 shirt is one of your nicest garments, you’d want it to proclaim that is indeed, Polo by Ralph Lauren, rather than possibly getting confused with any number of lesser knock-offs with small embroidered animals.

If you’re rich and the polo is something you wear on the weekends and after work, then you might not really care- if you’re doing something important, you’ll probably be wearing ONE of your $1000 tailored suits.

[bump]

I think OneCentStamp is kind of onto something, but I wasn’t really meaning Armani t-shirts vs. suits, but more in the same category. For example:

Rich Guy Version

Poor Guy Version

[monstro]

I don’t know if this is still true, when when I was in middle school and high school, higher class kids were into looking like bums. If you were shopping at Value Village and actively bragging about it, chances are you will middle or upper middle class. Only poor kids seemed to care about having nice-looking clothes.

[Nava]

@bump

I may be extrapolating a bit much here, but if that $75 shirt is one of your nicest garments, you’d want it to proclaim that is indeed, Polo by Ralph Lauren, rather than possibly getting confused with any number of lesser knock-offs with small embroidered animals.

I would say that the difference there is people who can tell why a PRL is good (correctly cut and sewn, a kind of cloth that will be comfortable and last a long time without becoming shapeless) vs those who know it’s good because it’s PRL. You’re more likely to be in the first group if you’re used to good clothes; this may come from being a seamstress’ child, not necessarily from being rich, it’s one of those instances where class and money don’t necessarily correlate. And that first group will be able to recognize that level of quality when they don’t know the brand, as well.

[Inner_Stickler]

@Broomstick

Language marker: “Ax me a question” vs. “Ask me a question”. The former is considered “ghetto” in my experience and while it’s most strongly associated with black people lower class/poor whites and others use it, too. The latter is seen as more upscale, educated, and professional.

You may be correct about how people see the word in isolation but it doesn’t take more than 10 minutes with a tape recorder to see that people often don’t notice ‘axe’ unless it confirms something they already knew such as that someone is black or uneducated. The white and educated people who said ‘axe’ get mentally skipped.

@JuliaSqueezer

Grammar.

Here in the middle of the US, hearing “We was so glad to see that” answered with “Was ya?”. “Oh yah. I seen him. We all seen him.”

Also “We have went there.”

All accepted as correct in the lower classes.

@Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus

Some of it’s not just the lower classes anymore.

Many otherwise well-educated native speakers now seem generally stumped by common irregular verbs like “run” and “eat”. They don’t want to believe that a verb can have a different form for simple past and present/past perfect, so words like “shrank”, “stank”, and “sank” are fading out of use. Or it may be the participle that starts to fade, we now hear “have ate”, sometimes, instead of “have eaten”. Another source of confusion is when the participle is exactly the same as the root, so we now hear constructions like “have ran” all the time.

Hahahaha.

[even_sven]

I think this whole “classy people have good taste” idea is way overblown. I’ve known plenty of old money people with bizarre collections, gold leaf fetishes, and questionable fashion choices. And I’ve seen plenty of cool, clean, Ikea furnished apartments. Different classes may play out tackiness in different ways, but tacky is universal.

[Grey_area]

@BobLibDem

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned tattoos yet. To me, the more extreme the lower on the class scale. Sure, your upper class girl might have a butterfly on the ankle, but facial and hand tattoos seem to me a lower class or prisoner thing.

I came here to post tattoos. Or more specifically tattoos, piercings, or other permanent body modifications that are visible when fully clothed. Of course there are exceptions like pro athletes (mentioned upthread) or people in creative fields where non-traditional appearance is expected or at least tolerated.

A visible tattoo (neck tattoos and smaller facial tattoos seem to be getting popular) is a great way to limit your employment options and to be honest it’s a bit of a baffling decision to me. Perhaps to their peers it’s a way of saying “I’m a badass,” or “I can afford all this fancy ink,” but to everyone else it signals “I will probably never earn more than minimum wage. Legally.”

[OneCentStamp]

@Grey_area

I came here to post tattoos. Or more specifically tattoos, piercings, or other permanent body modifications that are visible when fully clothed. Of course there are exceptions like pro athletes (mentioned upthread) or people in creative fields where non-traditional appearance is expected or at least tolerated.

A visible tattoo (neck tattoos and smaller facial tattoos seem to be getting popular) is a great way to limit your employment options and to be honest it’s a bit of a baffling decision to me. Perhaps to their peers it’s a way of saying “I’m a badass,” or “I can afford all this fancy ink,” but to everyone else it signals “I will probably never earn more than minimum wage. Legally.”

This is changing, I think. My wife (38) and I (40) have respectable jobs (she’s a nurse; I’m a medical office manager). We both have tattoos that are visible in office clothing (nothing north of the collar or past the wrists, though), and she has a nose piercing.

And this is in Utah, pretty much the most conservative state in the nation.

Face, neck, and knuckle tats are still Everlasting Jobstoppers™, though. That’s probably going to be a hurdle for another generation.

[Dangerosa]

@even_sven

I think this whole “classy people have good taste” idea is way overblown. I’ve known plenty of old money people with bizarre collections, gold leaf fetishes, and questionable fashion choices. And I’ve seen plenty of cool, clean, Ikea furnished apartments. Different classes may play out tackiness in different ways, but tacky is universal.

Enough money and family connections and tacky becomes eccentric

[Neutral]

This is my post from another forum, but tweaked up a bit…

UPPER CLASS:
Typical Household Income ranges:
$200,000 and above (most places)
$275,000 and above (expensive regions)

Most Common Educational Attainments:

• Graduate Degree
• Bachelors Degree

Notes:

• Wealth usually passed down
• Extremely high job security
• Much more insulated from effects of recession than other groups
• Children attend top notch schools
• Children go off to top universities and/or expensive private schools
• Vacations extremely common
• Very literate in investments
• Old money doesn’t splurge on cars; new money oftentime does

UPPER MIDDLE CLASS:
Typical Household Income Ranges:
$90,000-$200,000 (most places)
$140,000-$275,000 (expensive regions)

Most Common Educational Attainments:

• Graduate Degree
• Bachelors Degree

Notes:

• Children attend good&top notch schools
• Vacations very common
• Family very familiar and active with investments
• High job security
• Skilled labor

MIDDLE-MIDDLE CLASS:
Typical Household Income Ranges:
$60,000-$90,000 (most places)
$85,000-$140,000 (expensive regions)

Most Common Educational Attainments:

• Bachelors Degree
• Some College/Associate Degree

Notes:

• Live fairly comfortable life
• Can live at least a year w/o working
• Children attend good or alright schools
• Vacations fairly common
• May have some investments other than real estate
• Decent job security
• Health insurance

LOWER MIDDLE CLASS:
Typical Household Income Ranges:
$40,000-$60,000 (most places)
$60,000-$85,000 (expensive regions)

Most Common Educational Attainments:

• Some College/Associate Degree
• High School Grad

Notes:

• Similar to working class but with more security
• Enjoys occasional luxuries but still occasionally struggles
• Vacations are rarely overseas
• Children usually attend “alright” schools

WORKING CLASS:
Typical Household Income Ranges:
$18,000-$40,000 (most places)
$30,000-$60,000 (expensive regions)

Most Common Educational Attainments:

• High School Grad
• High School Dropout

Notes:

• Workers do low-skilled, low wage and low-security work
• Single parent homes common
• Children attend lower performing schools
• Vacations very rare
• Very little savings
• Live paycheck to paycheck

LOW INCOME:
Typical Household Income Ranges:
Under $18,000/yr (most places)
Under $30,000/yr (expensive regions)

Most Common Educational Attainments:

• High School Dropout
• High School Grad

Notes:

• Children generally attend low-performing schools
• Prone to obesity/high fast food consumption
• Tend to be higher crime areas
• Single parent households extremely common
• No vacation
• No health insurance
• Prone to having children young
• Having no car is common
• Usage of govt programs common

[panache45]

I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned classical music.

@Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus

Some of it’s not just the lower classes anymore.

Many otherwise well-educated native speakers now seem generally stumped by common irregular verbs like “run” and “eat”. They don’t want to believe that a verb can have a different form for simple past and present/past perfect, so words like “shrank”, “stank”, and “sank” are fading out of use. Or it may be the participle that starts to fade, we now hear “have ate”, sometimes, instead of “have eaten”. Another source of confusion is when the participle is exactly the same as the root, so we now hear constructions like “have ran” all the time.

Here is a thread I started a while back. So much for the myth that Dopers are super-intelligent.

Another thing that crosses class is the refusal to use “me” when referring to yourself and another person. “He gave it to John and I.”

[Nava]

@even_sven

I think this whole “classy people have good taste” idea is way overblown. I’ve known plenty of old money people with bizarre collections, gold leaf fetishes, and questionable fashion choices. And I’ve seen plenty of cool, clean, Ikea furnished apartments. Different classes may play out tackiness in different ways, but tacky is universal.

See, the definition is that you’re classy (actually, stylish is a better word here, as it avoids the confusion between different definitions of “class”) if you have good taste. The people with the gold leaf fetishes had money but no class; the people with the tasteful Ikea apartments had class and may or may not have had money. Class is the difference between Vicky’n’ Becky and Kate Middleton.

[nevadaexile]

Some thoughts:

[ol]
[li]Teeth - Straight and healthy looking teeth (with none visibly missing) are a sign of class status.[/li][li]A well-defined vocabulary - The ability to use multiple words to express degrees of a state of being or to clearly define an item are signs of a good education,which itself is a sign of class status[/li][li]Overt racism or prejudice - Lower class people are going to express their intolerance of other groups more readily than those of a higher class status. That doesn’t make them more prejudiced than the wealthy; they just see fewer reasons to hide it.[/li][li]Vacations - The wealthier that one is, the more likely they are to avoid the more common vacation spots. Disneyland/World,Panama City,FL and Myrtle Beach aren’t often the choices for the more privileged.[/li][li]Foreign Language fluency (beyond the language of their ancestry) - When a person can speak a language which isn’t part of their national or ethnic heritage, it’s often clear that they are not lower class.[/li][/ol]

[Mr.Nylock]

I think something more intangible is the difference in world views. I find lower people to be more conformist less tolerant, and have a more black and white view of things. I find higher class people to not be as likely to be so moralistic in general. There are other subtle differences I can’t put my finger on, but its one of those you know it when you see it things.

[bump]

@Neutral

This is my post from another forum, but tweaked up a bit…

I don’t know if you can really draw monetary lines like that. In most ways, being poor, working class, middle class or upper class is more of a mindset and lifestyle than a numerical sextile based on income. That’s why the upper middle class really has more in common with lower middle class than the upper class, even though the incomes can be closer to the upper class.

If there are economic determinants, they probably break down like this:

Low Income/Working class: The determinant is generally having steady work, even if the work doesn’t pay well or isn’t high prestige.

Working/Middle class: The determinant is having enough cash to meet all obligations and have some left over. The main distinguishing characteristic within the class is the amount left over, and what’s done with it.

Middle/Upper class: The determinant is how the income is got- middle class people are paid salaries/wages by others, while upper class people generally have investments and ownership stakes in things, and if they work, it’s to maximize profit from those things, not so some other person/organization can pay them a salary. In other words, they work because they want to make money, not because they want to get paid a salary.

All people seem to want to show off what wealth they have, but different groups go about it differently- the amount of “flash” goes down as the actual amount of wealth goes up. Things get more subtle- you have to know what to look for; your middle-middle guy may have a Seiko watch, while the rich guy may have an Omega Speedmaster, but unless you know how to tell them apart, it may not be obvious that one’s a $250 watch, and one’s a $12,000 watch.

[Ruken]

I read that iPhones trend toward folks with more money vs Android or others. Can’t say I really noticed. Apparently fancy cars are made to synch with iPhones, and sales people look for customers who have then.

[Procrustus]

@Ruken

I read that iPhones trend toward folks with more money vs Android or others. Can’t say I really noticed. Apparently fancy cars are made to synch with iPhones, and sales people look for customers who have then.

I think most modern cars synch with androids too. Bluetooth is Bluetooth.

[Mr.Nylock]

@bump

Omega Speedmaster, but unless you know how to tell them apart, it may not be obvious that one’s a $250 watch, and one’s a $12,000 watch.

Personally I think the seamaster is much classier; but I’m only at the Christopher Ward level myself.

[Dave_Hartwick]

A few class indicators I’ve noticed follow, and since I know very few if any people who were born into the upper class, it’s all about bourgeois vs proles, with the proviso that all Americans think they’re middle class:

Beer. People are weird about beer. The class conscious will drink only bottled beer, preferably imported or craft. However, actually making beer and/or becoming a beer nerd is, I think, a likely working-class indication. Hipster consumption of PBR, incidentally, is just a trendy (and quite clever) way of coping with financial embarrassment.

Accents. Having the wrong one is a mistake, for the class conscious.

Anglophilia/Eurocentrism. A love for England, particularly rural England, is an indicator of the middle class. A desire to travel to Europe same deal, taking French in school (seriously, how useless), and a weakness for “picking up” an English accent after 5 minutes in the same room with a Brit ditto. I have known a couple Americans to pick up Anglicisms just by interacting with Brits online. Aggressive love of America is an earmark of membership in or pandering to the working class.

Quiet vs. loud vacations. A family with a “cabin on the lake” where they vacation each year is almost definitely class aware, but to make sure, you have to listen to how loud the activities are. Sailing, cross-country skiing, and hiking are patrician, jet-skis, snowmobiling, and four-wheeling are plebeian. This one is interesting in that the plebe options can cost more money than the classy ones.

[Blackberry]

@panache45

Another thing that crosses class is the refusal to use “me” when referring to yourself and another person. “He gave it to John and I.”

That always bugs me and it’s so common. I don’t care if people don’t use proper grammar because they don’t care, but that one is mainly used by people who are trying to use proper grammar. Some of them are even grammar snobs and judgmental of other people using improper grammar.

Stop captioning pictures “John and I”, people. Would you caption a picture of just yourself with “I”? Goddammit.