Good question. From my point of view, ideally, the notion of “assimilation” will change. I would like Indian-Americans to be Westernized in the sense of being secular, democratic, and egalitarian, but I would not like to see homogenization of culture. I think America is richer when there are a variety, for example, of languages heard and clothing worn. (Why do we all dress for business as if we live in rainy, chilly, drab 19th century London?).
Heh, if we’re talking about streets everything changes! The first penis I ever saw was on the body of a man who was bathing in the streets of Calcutta. Obviously he had no other place to go, the poor man.
Self-respecting households do not approve of casual nudity.
:dubious: Hmmm . . .
Your meaning? I’d answer but I’m not really sure what you’re getting at to be honest.
Well, I might be completely off base here, but I remember I had an Indian classmate who would say that the culture of India is like this and that; and when challenged on one of his points, he’d sniff, “it’s not the educated people who do it that way”. (Vague memory, heavily paraphrased, sorry.)
See, I do get an impression that one feature of Indian culture is that its denizens are very solipsistic: I do something this way, my group does something this way, therefore that’s the way it’s done. I think I notice a bit of this with ascenray’s posts as well–I wonder to what extent the (it seems) extremely conservative household he grew up in–where a non-caste member couldn’t even get in the door–really represents anything but his own household.
So, sorry to pounce on your comment with a :dubious:, but when you say “self-respecting households”, is that a throw-away line or are you making an actual distinction?
Again, sorry if I’m off base, but I’m genuinely curious.
Speaking for myself, I’ve tried very hard not to speak in absolutes, added qualifiers wherever appropriate, and I said more than once on this board that Indian society and Hinduism are very diverse.
I’ve had to redraft my response to this several times while laughing out loud.
(1) Please point out where I have described my family as being “extremely conservative” or where I have specifically ascribed general descriptions of cultural notions as applying to my family.
(2) Please point out where I have said that members of my family barred people from other castes from entering the house. That would be interesting, since about half of the marriages in my parents’ generation are inter-caste and half or more of the marriages in my generation are inter-ethnic.
I think she is speaking in the terms you will hear Indians themselves speak. Middle class Indians can be obsessed with notions of propriety. The rich don’t have to care, and the poor can’t afford to.
There is a lot of room for variety in India, but casual nudity in a family household would be pretty rare. It’s a condition not just of general cultural values, but also of the actual physical living conditions. It’s a hot country. Houses are built with open rooms and cross-ventilation. Windows and doors are kept open during the day. Large families share the rooms in the house. Most people live in a household or neighborhood in which anyone might be looking into your room, even from the street, and various members of your family of differing generations are going in and out of every room.
Except in nudist colonies, you’re not going to find many Westerners walking around naked under these conditions.
Oh, and the “sky-clad Jains” who who don’t wear clothes are monks, who, like the Shaivite mendicants, have cut themselves off from family and society. They are not walking around naked in the context of a family household. Digambara Jains with families wear clothes. And many of them traditionally work as tailors, which would be an odd profession for someone who never wore clothes.
Oh. Heh. I was making a sort of sarcastic comment, yes, but also half-seriously. Um…self-respect is a very big deal in India. Losing this is like losing face in chinese culture - it’s not to be withstood.
Every household is different, yes, which is why I have been trying a lot lately to point out that whatever I post is my experience solely. The whole caste thing ascenray speaks of? Well, as I said I’ve experienced almost none of that.
But some things are universal and nudity and the taboos against it happen to be one of them.
I am of a middle class household so in my household our self-respect was vital. Part of the reason of the falling-out between myself and my family was my mother felt I had severely shamed the family by my behavior. Not that my behavior was necessarily wrong or not, that didn’t matter. What mattered was the perception - it was perceived as wrong, so of course the family would be appalled.
When I began discussing with my family on my own, I found that while they weren’t 100% happy about it they had much less trouble with it than my mother. So perception is a huge thing.
India is a hot, humid, tropical country. It’s very important to have a clean anus, otherwise you increase the risk of painful rashes and other nasty things. And the availability of paper as a cleaning tool is relatively recent, culturally speaking. The cultural compromise is that your left hand is considered unclean, so you can’t eat with it.
I completely agree that, depending on the situation, it can be a more practical way to wipe. What I was disagreeing with is the notion that it’s a cleaner way than paper wiping.
It’s like when I go camping and wash the dishes using river sand as an abrasive and river water to rinse. It’s very practical and does a good job, but I would never consider it a cleaner way to wash dishes.
And really, if the Indians are going to be disgusted by any hand of a Westerner, it should be the right. I’m pretty sure most right handed people use their right hand to wipe. Their left hand would likely be purer than their right.
in the “why is indian culture so insular?” thread in cafe society, ascenray, you said that
" Strict vegetarianism – which shuns onions and garlic along with animal products (but not dairy)…"
i am curious as to why the no-go on onions and garlic?
and sorry for the lack of proper quotage.
thanks!
love
yams!!
Sorry to keep harping on the wiping issue, but I’m wondering why I’ve never seen water available in the toilet stalls in any Indian restaurant I’ve ever visited. Seems like if they expect any Indian customers, they’d have something to accommodate them?
For those answering the questions, would you mind qualifying two things: 1) When you came to the US (I can’t tell if you were all born here). 2) What part of India your family is from?
Thanks a lot for fielding this thread.
Jains avoid them because they do not want to kill the invisible animals living inside them. I don’t know how it was adopted into “strict” Hindu vegetarianism.
I’ve never seen an Indian restaurant in the United States set up for Indian-style bathroom habits. It never occurred to me that it should. Most people going to Indian restaurants are either non-Indians, Indians who have grown up in the United States, or Indians who live in the United States.
Also, in my experience, Indians who move to the United States tend to adopt Western bathroom practices fairly quickly. You don’t see any squat toilets, for example. And there is always a roll of toilet paper.
Quick question…
I do try to be sensitive to people’s beliefs. Also, I’m severely left-handed.
I do pretty much everything with my left hand to the point that I can see my left arm is larger than my right. It’s a deep-seated thing with me, and my mother is left-handed, and my grandmother was.
So…
When I go into a Middle-eastern or Indian shop, I make a conscious effort to conduct the transaction with my right hand. I really need to think about it. And a few years ago, I decided a lot of the shop owners (and often they were new arrivals and very un-westernised Muslims or Hindus) would take my money or give me my change with their left hand. This surprised me, and to avoid it being a “Red van is always parked at the corner” type thing, I started actually making mental note of it. These guys use their left hand very slightly more than 50% of the time when conducting business with me.
Either they don’t like me*, or there is something amiss with what I’ve been told.
*Even the friendliest of the friendly do it. It’s not that I think this left hand taboo is a lie, but sometimes I start to wonder.
In the United States anyway, it seems that a lot of cultural “rules” erode, and sometimes pretty quickly. I certainly don’t follow many if any of the rules we’ve been talking about here. My father tried to enforce the “don’t touch food with your left hand” rule into my teens, but now even he uses his left hand.
It’s very possible that many of the Middle Easterners you encounter in Australia are just cutting loose. (You never know, there might be that one shopkeeper who will curse your sons and your son’s sons for paying him with your left hand. 
)