But I think very few people actually take that position. I think there are many more, like me, who’ve found themselves forced, by the sheer hatred and irresponsibility of the campaign to just get him at any cost, to remain silent about his human flaws in order to avoid being seen as approving of those efforts.
**
Again I’d like anyone out there to find another presidential pardon that involved a fugitive who renounced his American citizenship, who never stood before a U.S. court and never served any kind of punishment.
Can the partisan tsk-tsking and do it. Or shut up.
Haven’t seen anything about the guy renouncing his citizenship
But I agree with you. This guy should do time(although guys with that much cash rarely do real time) and I don’t think it should be downplayed. I can only hope the IRS beats him down!!!
I don’t think the ‘prank’ should be downplayed either. We should expect a higher standard of behavior from public employees, especially at that level.
Milo: you will not find another pardon with the exact same characteristics you list here. So what? None of us seem to be saying ‘gee, that was the best idea Clinton ever had’. No debate.
But you seem to be very upset at this, and want us to all join in your ire at the same level. The problem with that option, is that it assumes that this is the worst case of Presidential pardons ever. And, since you’re forbidding us from discussing or mentioning any other more heinous pardons, it makes your point moot. Sure it’s the worst case ever - as long as this is the only one you will allow us to discuss.
Consider this: had Clinton pardoned McDougalls (both), Hubbley, Lewinski et al **after ** they’d been called to testify by Starr & Co, but before they’d been called - you (and I) would have been hollering bloody murder. That’s pretty similar to what former Pres Bush did, and the underlying investigation that was quashed wasn’t about some land deal in Arkansas, but about trading weapons to a questionable nation. The Iran/Contra thing had national implications, and the investigation was completely shot down by the Presidential Pardon process. Not only that, but the benefit accrued by each was vastly different - it’s alledged that Clinton’s political party got $$, Bush, however, avoided implication in a huge scandal.
And, as your mom would point out, neither is ok. While she wouldn’t have let you off the hook by saying “but brother Jimmy did this worse thing”, she would also have held brother Jimmy accountable. So, I’ll wait til you can adequately 'splain away the other presidential pardons that you aren’t screaming about, before I worry about attempting to defend an action that I didn’t agree with either.
Too subtle for my own good.
Is it too late to apply for a pardon?
Dear Milo:
No.
Yer Pal,
Elucination
“You Rock!” winner…while Spiritus is today’s “You Suck!” winner! 
And I simply obey Eluc, no matter what.
stoidy
I win a suck? Suddenly I feel very Presidential. Okay – who wants to buy a pardon?
So then pops up Dan (Mad Dog) Burton, champion of moral hygiene and noted FOB (Fiend of Bill), heading an Investigation by his Government Reform Committee, will be burrowing into the issues surrounding the Rich pardon. High dudgeon and outrage will be served. Anybody remember that Bugs Bunny cover of Wagner, with noted tenor E. Fudd? “Kill the Waaaaaaa-bit! Kill the WAAAAA-bit!” Expect massive use of Bill’s full name: William Jefferson Clinton. But finally we will know exactly what role Mark Rich played in the murder of Vince Foster!
But this just in! Arlen Specter has called for a Senate investigation to begin the day before Dan Doggy Dog’s House investigation! Talk about pre-empted! Maybe we’ll get another chance to see William Rehnquist model his design for the Chief Justice Robe, with those simply cunning gold stripes. A tiara as well, perhaps?
And off to the side, “Landslide” George is confused. “Did I say sic 'em? I thought I said sit! stay! Hey, I’m the President, you guys gotta do what I say! I’m telling! Dad!..”
What exactly is the procedure for impeaching an ex-President?
I had no doubt that Clinton had done a lot to damage the typically honorable Democratic Party. I never thought the damage was irreparable, though.
Seeing some of the “nothing matters” Clinton supporters here, however, makes me wonder.
Why am I surprised? I guess I’m not.
Just to wrap this one up:
I saw Clinton defend the Rich pardon to a group of people who collectively were not happy about it.
Mostly, he reiterated things that he has said publicly – that he became convinced that it was a bad prosecution, that by forcing Rich to waive the statue of limitations he created the opportunity for civil authorities to get money otherwise unattainable, that if he’s really so bad Attorney General Ashcroft can go after him for the money, etc.
He put a ton of weight on Barak’s request, and opined that Mrs. Rich’s status as a fundraiser was irrelevant in the sense that people who had far more money and influence had supported Milken’s pardon. He also slightly misrepresented the circumstances of Rich’s leaving the country. Whether he did that out of ignorance or otherwise I obviously don’t know.
Judging from his reaction to some of the questions and from speaking with him privately afterwards, I have to say that he seemed unaware that Rich was such an icon of malfeasance in the Wall St. community. He also seemed eager for people to take away the impression (although he never said explicitly himself) that a) one shouldn’t discount the various rumors that Rich had done some good work for Israeli intelligence and b) Pollard wasn’t going to get a pardon, but throwing Barak a bone wasn’t such a bad idea.
It was still a bad pardon, and I’d still cough up ten large if the Bushies could figure out how to undo it. But I think I understand better where he was at when he granted it.
If we’re going to wrap this puppy up, let’s first notethis interesting little item:
Nice to see that this whole thing is so clearly explainable, all involved want to be as helpful as they can at getting the real truth out there.
And this, from the L.A. Times:
The sleaze that oozed off the Clinton presidency as he slimed out of the White House is proving difficult to scrub away.
Milo:
The enemy is not Republican.
The enemy is not Democrat.
The Enemy is bullshit.
On this we agree.
Elucidation
Indeed, we do.
I’ve said before, there are a great many - most - Democratic members of Congress, Governors, etc., for whom I have nothing but the utmost respect - even if I have philosophical policy disagreements with them.
And for the “what about Iran-Contra” folks? Iran-Contra was criminal, unethical, and anything else bad you want to call it. It’s a permanent smudge on Reagan and, to an extent, Bush. It should stand as an extreme embarassment for a political party that prides itself as defenders of the rule of law.
Actually, the enemy isn’t so much bullshit, in that bullshit and politics are often somewhat hand-and-glove. Members of Congress are almost required to puff up their contributions, heighten their outrage, etc., for their constituents back home. Sleaze, on the other hand …
I heard a Congress member on MSNBC or FoxNews talking about introducing legislation that would require presidents to submit their proposed pardons to the Attorney General’s office and give the Justice Department an opportunity to at least offer their opinion.
I don’t know if they can pass such a law, in that it would, in effect, place restrictions on a president’s pretty clear Constitutional right to pardon people.
All of this, of course, would be moot if Clinton didn’t have to dance on the edge of legality and ethics with many of his actions. That’s why I have no use for the guy.
(Who, never forget, I voted for twice. Duped, I say!)
WTF???
At what point did you decide that you hated him? And why did it then slop onto Al? Please don’t tell me it had a single thing to do with Monica…please. Anything but that!
stoid
**
I don’t hate Bill Clinton. I’ve never said I hated Bill Clinton. I said I have no use for him.
The first time I voted for Clinton, I was one of those young 20-somethings who bought into all the idealism he was selling. “Finally, a president who’s in touch with young people!” Which, Bush the Elder clearly wasn’t.
I came to see he was no John Kennedy, but again wasn’t too impressed with who the Reps offered up in 1996, Bob Dole, who I considered also out-of-touch and too old.
(In hindsight, I regret this. I think Dole probably would have been a very good president.)
Over the course of the '90s, I had a sort of evolution in my viewpoint on Democrats and their policies. I see too many clinging to the politics of division and class warfare, as if this is the only solution for America.
Actually, it’s the only solution for Democrats. For if they lose labor, the poor and minorities, they don’t have much left in their cupboard.
I came to believe higher taxes and more spending at the federal government level is not the answer to just about anything we want to fix or improve in society.
I believe a rising tide does lift all boats. If the rich benefit more than me, I can live with that, because it’s occurring with the confines of our capitalist, free-market system. It certainly beats the alternative, a permanent underclass dependant on a too-large portion of my paycheck, and federal bureaucrats spending my money in ways that go far beyond the national aspects of our lives for which we should all feel obligated to contribute.
I saw a long-time, conservative Republican Governor in my state, John Engler, completely overhaul the welfare system. Making it much harder for the able-bodied to live on the government dole. Many on the left screamed at the time this was instituted, saying it would leave people starving in the streets.
Well, you know what? It didn’t. Now people that need help or a temporary safety net still get it, and those who should be working are working.
Was this evil Republicans being mean to the poor? I would submit that Engler’s reforms in this area improved the lives of the poor. It probably helped to show them they could do things maybe they thought they couldn’t in many cases.
Democrats dragged their heels all the way on this transformation. Now it’s the national model, and certain elements of it were co-opted by Clinton.
While the Democrats demonized Newt Gingrich, I saw Clinton approve seven or eight of 10 items in the Contract with America, and take credit for them.
And yes, things like character, integrity, honor and honesty matter to me.
I’m fully aware that Hollywood pornographers don’t care about this at all, but personally, I don’t like it when the leader of my country is getting his dick sucked and acting like Beavis and Butthead with a cigar, with a 21-year-old female employee of his, IN THE WORKPLACE. Not just an employee, an intern. Isn’t the idea with internships to show young people the way of the work-world? It showed a complete lack of character, moral hypocracy, irresponsibility, and unbelievably bad taste.
That Clinton chose to be defiant when caught bringing dishonor to his office further pushed me away from his views. When it was proven he lied under oath, and his smug little word-play - the definition of ‘is,’ and all that - showed pretty clearly that the guy sees himself as above it all.
To then see Democratic LAW-makers, say “it was just about sex” when someone lies during a court-ordered deposition, just blew me away. It was the Democrats who made this a partisan issue, by deciding they had to side at all costs with the president because he was of their party. So now we’ll pretend that some laws and some judge’s orders you have to pay attention to, and others you don’t, depending on how you feel about them? They know better.
(Not to mention, anyone positing that oral sex isn’t sex needs an Atomic-Wedgie just on general principles.)
And as for Al Gore - don’t hate him either. I wasn’t particularly enamored of George W.; I’m a McCainiac. In fact, I thought the way the establishment Republicans smacked down McCain in South Carolina after his great showing in New Hampshire was rather despicable. Painting him as not a “good Republican.” While he is something of a maverick and his own man (to his infinite credit, I say), his record is also solidly conservative.
Then when Bush pulled McCain along on some of his final stops in key swing states, well, let’s just say I grinded my teeth a little.
The fact that McCain could have jumped ship to the Reform Party and kicked both Bush’s and Gore’s ass but didn’t shows he is indeed a good Republican.
Anyway, back to Gore. I gave Gore a hearing. If he’d compelled me to vote for him, I would have. (Something I’m certain you couldn’t say about Bush, Stoid.)
All Gore had to say, however, was “the richest 1 percent.” Same old, tired, class-warfare shit. We’ve got a gigantic surplus, Al. That’s my money. Fix Social Security and Medicare, pay down the debt, and give me my money back, you bitch. (And don’t forget to give me back my black T-shirt.)
Bush’s tax plan, on the other hand, is pragmatic, fair and makes sense. If money is available to give a tax break, why not give it to everyone who pays taxes? And why exclude the weathiest 5 percent of Americans, who pay nearly half the taxes?
(I understand that this causes a deer-in-the-headlights look on people who have the class warfare mantra pemanently ingrained in them.)
Targeted tax cuts? Yeah; targeted to people likely to vote for Democrats. The Dems do know how to play to the base, I give them that.
So, there you have it, Stoid. There’s the Reader’s Digest version of my story. (And I didn’t even get into how I think Clinton is a terrible foreign policy president who misused the military repeatedly.)
What’s your’s?
Uh, never mind.
Jeez, Stoid, don’t you know better than to ask Milo a question like that? Well, now you do.
But one has to admire the boldness with which he exposes the hypocrisy of the Dems and thier relentless pandering to the poor and powerless. How dare they try to wrest the wealth from those people whom God, in his wisdom, has made the stewards of our national resources. Must have been God, damn sure wasn’t my idea.
In America, money is air, money is life itself. Tax the rich? Hell, yes! Tax 'em till they squeel in porcine rage, tax 'em till they stop blubbering about “entrepenuership” and “free enterprise”, tax 'em till they know what yanking on your bootstraps accomplishes!
And the smarmy, self-righteous “Christian” blather! “Jesus Puked!” (Elucidator 3:15) Did they get a special dispensation, some secret message “Hey, guys, just kidding with that Sermon on the Mount stuff! Go get 'em, tiger!”
Will I deprive them of another SUV in designer colors? Another Armani suit, a splendid, if somewhat foxy, beaujolais! If it means every child in America goes to a decent, safe school with a full tummy, Hell YES!!, strip 'em down to thier sox and let’em cook fries!
If that’s “class war”, make the most of it. And if it is, whose side are you on?
E -
Thanks for helping cement how firmly I am against just about everything you stand for policy-wise. I couldn’t disagree with you more, and I’m sure you feel the same way about me.
Our relationship is positively symbiotic! Glad I’m here to help!
I do take exception, however, with your assertion about Republican complicity regarding those hungry kiddies in bad schools. Many Republican governors, including the one in my state, have made education reform a priority.
And, however you may disagree with him, it would be difficult to argue it isn’t a primary focus of President Bush.
Who was in power for the last decade, again?
And as for the poor and minorities, I believe some of them are starting to catch on to the fact that the Democratic Party needs them to be right where they are. That they are grist for the mill of a flawed, socialistic wealth-redistribution policy that fails to reward enterprise.
But the tide is turning!
And as for my SUV, you come live up here in the buckle of The Snow Belt and see how well your Geo Tree-Hug works for you this time of year. 
Thanks for explaining your position. Very interesting
First of all, your age is revealing when one tries to understand how you came by some of your perceptions of reality. Unless 20-something means you were 29 at the time, which I kinda doubt.
Secondly, this was a good example of the Mind of a Conservative, and may I say, with all respect due you, that you have shored up any cracks that may have begun to appear in my assessment of conservative theory and policy, and the sentiments that drive it.
stoid
So much bullshit, so little time!
Let’s discuss the “relationship” some other time, Dear, the game is on.
You got it bass-ackwards again, Milo. You gotta put the words in my mouth before you can drag 'em out again. No such assertion was made. However, now that you mention it…
Ahhhh, yes, the keen focus of “Landslide” George’s laser like intellect! He rushes to Congress with urgent legislation, top priority! And what is that urgent priority? An education bill? Later. Campaign finance reform. Well, pretty soon. First we must alleviate the suffering of the wealthy, those very persons who embody the first principle of a just society: greed.
Same buncha assholes running the world for the last ten thousand years.
Ahhh, “enterprise”. The Republicans favorite way of saying “I got mine, Jack”. What is it about “enterprise” that gets you guys all loosey-goosey? What about the “enterprise” of the labor movement, that paid with their suffering for the eight-hour day, etc., oftimes with their very lives!
Georgie Tirebiter is rich because of his enterprise? “Howls of derisive laughter, Bruce!”
Well, then, what about poor suffering Mark Rich? The very embodiment of enterprise!
Since we both know better than that, I will give this argument the contempt it deserves, that is, richly deserves. Enterprise isn’t a virtue. It is a characteristic, and bears more resembalance to greed than to compassion.
Amen.
Live in Minnesota. Go ahead, tell me “snow”. Don’t own a Geo. Don’t own a car. I manage. Life is tough, I’m tougher, it works. You actually own an SUV? No wonder you need a tax cut, poor baby! You need it to give to Exxon! They need it to reward the enterprise of camel-humpers who were born in the sand on top of the oil! And to reward the enterprise of their CEO’s, so they can trickle down on us!
*“Canyonerooooooo-wo! A deer-thumping, squirrel squashing driving machine! Canyonerooooo-WO!”