Clinton - I beg your pardon?

SmackFu - The silence on Clinton was deafening in this thread, although I’ve been pleased to see some can put aside their particular political persuasion to feel rightful outrage over this.

And although I’ve haven’t been a fan of the Clintons for awhile, this really rises beyond that. As flippant as some may want to be about it, it’s extremely unsavory stuff.

And the lightning rod that Rich was in attracting attention to the pardons is causing increased media scrutiny of all of them. And the more that comes out, the more sleazy it looks.

Meet Tom Bhakta. As the linked N.Y. Times article indicates, the Arkansas businessman’s pardon on a tax evasion conviction also has quite a stench to it:

But maybe elucidator is right. Maybe these pardons were done out of kindness. A little kindness goes a long way, after all.

Or maybe the key to getting help from this particular living president was to give him and his great heaping gobs of dead presidents.

Elucidator: Barring the ever slight possibility that Clinton did it out of kindness…why would you be ok for him to pardon someone based on how much they donated to the Democratic Party? Isn’t that almost bribery? (In my youthful eyes, that’s exactly what it is)

I believe that they are, once they are valid pardons. The legal theory that the Justice folks were toying with is that it seems that a pardon works like a warrant – it is not valid until it is served on the pardonee.

They looked over at the “OUT” box, saw that a bunch of Clinton pardons were still waiting for the mail guys (or whoever) to come pick them up and deliver them to folks like Rich, and said, “Hmmm…”

Eh. My money is probably better off in India anyway.

I really am confused here. Perhaps it is merely my fervent desire to gain admission to Milo’s list of right thinking liberals, which would sure beat a pony for Christmas, but I honestly don’t get it. If Clinton was selling something, what was he selling? And more important, why? Campaign funds? For what campaign? A fervent desire to suck up to rich, potential donors? Then why not pardon Mike Millken?

As I understand it, he is enjoined from stock-related business, which he is skirting very lucratively by “advising” and “consulting”. He still has gobs of dead presidents, to borrow the poetry, but could have gobs more if he were pardoned. He has actually done some time at Club Fed (which is not my idea of prison, but never mind). Why did the Mark Rich guy score and he didn’t?

Some of Clinton I clearly grasp, especially his ideas on reducing stress in the workplace. But I dont see the reasoning for any of this, and niether do I see what he has to gain. Am I supposed to believe he pardoned one rich guy for a measly five grand, but shut out Mike Millken who fairly oozes green energy? Money is the obvious motivation, but it doesn’t seem to hold up.

So why?

time… tonight’s Nightline is all about this. We can always count on Cranky Uncle Ted to give us the Straight Dope…

stoid

Wow. This is truly incredible.

Any liberals going to defend the purposeful vandalism of White House computer equipment next? Anyone brave enough to do that? At long last, is there at least one act by Clinton supporters in the White House that cannot be justified or swept under the rug?

Looks like Clinton found a nice legitimate way to really piss off the conservative crowd in Washington. If the republicans really want to start yet another investigation, why don’t they look into the motives of the the supreme court judges when they stopped the election and appointed Bush president ? It’s pretty clear that Clinton was well within his rights to pardon Rich et. al., and there’s nothing that can be done about it anyway, but if congress finds that the members of the supreme court violated their oaths of office, surely they can also find some method of punishing them ?

Maybe yes, maybe no. I’ve not been paying much attention, but what I have heard is that it is sort of traditional, although I have also heard that the Clinton crowd was worse than usual.

Which I think is funny and also understandable, given that the circumstances under which one party is handing over the White house to the opposite party are far, far worse than usual, which i’m sure had everything to do with the severity of the vandalism. It is not as though this is a normal transfer of power, after all. Alot of unusual and justified anger was expressed.

And I don’t think for a second that Clinton himself had a thing to do with it, or that he was even privy to it.

stoid

Oh, hell, Anthracite, I’m hardly a liberal, but I’ll defend it:

  1. It was not “vandalism,” it was the removal of the “w” keys, most of which were found in nearby locations and easily put back in.
  2. Playing pranks on the incoming administration is a White House tradition. George Stephanopolous, in his book, described the White House computers as missing their hard drives when the Clinton administration took office.
  3. President Bush himself refused to describe the keyboard prank as vandalism, and was quoted in the Washington Post as saying his staff may have overreacted in that description.

It was a stark and balmy night. I had three slugs in me, two bourbon, one lead. I was cleaning my rosco, and thinking about buying a gun, when trouble came through the door. Blonde, as usual.

Jeez, that Noonan broad again. The Anti-Viagra.

“Eluc…” she began

“Can it, sister. Only Stoidy calls me that, and she makes you look like Alpo. Used Alpo.”

“Elucination…”

“Thats Milo, the Armenian Terrorist. Watch it.”

“What *do I call you”

“Don’t. Just get to the case. I get a thousand bucks a day, plus expenses.”

“Its for the White House…”

“Make that two thousand.”

It was a shocking case. Vandalism, bufoonery, a heinous disregard for the dignity of the office. I didn’t bat an eye. I’d seen it all before. There was the Tri-Delta case…

“So whats the problem? Put the keys back on, or buy different keyboards. Ain’t you heard of Plug and Play? Heres the number for Microsoft Tech Support. Hope you like soft jazz.”

She was scribbling my responses.

“But there’s porno pictures loaded in the laser printer tray. It’ll print a bunch of normal pages, then one will come out with…a picture”

“Picture? Spill it, toots. Picture of who?”

She wrestled with herself. I could tell she’d done that before and lost, two falls out of three.

“Linda Tripp. Naked. Well, wearing a wire”

Suddenly I needed another shot. Chose bourbon. Linda Tripp! These guys played hardball.

“Run off thank you letters to the Christian Coalition till the paper runs out. Call that number I gave you, they’ll tell you how to put in more paper. Someday. What else”

“Well, now the screens are all dotted with white-out. And George is saying that its all just hi-jinks and fun.”

“George? The one who buried Paul?”

“No, Stephanapolous, the one who looks like Paul. Buried Vince Foster.”

“Well, thats all Greek to me. Forget it. What else.”

“And this graffitti in the mens room” She passed me a note “For a good time call Monica, 555-…” I shoved it in my desk drawer. Could use a good assistant to relieve my…stress.

“Forget that too. If thats it, you can pay me and get out. Go out through the loading dock, will you, I got a reputation in this town.”

She pulled out a packet from her purse, dropped it on the desk. Wasn’t what I expected, looking for simoleans, greenbacks, dead presidents. This was a packet of stiff cards, wrapped and labeled “Palm Beach County”.

“Ooopsie!” she said, and hurriedly shoved it back into her purse, replacing it with the real stuff.

“Anything else you want?” she said, giving me the eye. She had two, only gave me one. Republicans.

“Tell Mr. Big to double PBS funding. Broadcast Garrison Keillor worldwide, then I’ll keep my trap shut.”

She disappeared in the usual way, in a huff. Or maybe it was a limo. I was left slamming down bourbon, trying to get that picture out of my mind. Linda Tripp! Damn.

The vandalism stuff, as has so often been the case in Clinton stories, appears to be much less than meets the eye, to the extent it may exist at all. It’s this kind of automatic “The Clintons are just evil, so whatever it is, they MUST have done it!” story, which doesn’t stand up to the light, that we’ve gotten so used to over the last 9 years.

Milo, you ought to know by now that one man’s insistence on “staying focused” can look to another man like simple hypocrisy. Either you’re defending general moral standards, and are willing to apply them to people you like as well as those you dislike, or you don’t have a right to be taken seriously at all. Agreed?

For anyone else still bleating about “It wasn’t about sex, it was about perjury/obstruction etc.!”, just answer this: If no one is above the law, is anyone beneath it either?

Now, how do the Rich/Green pardons look, as smarmy as they may seem, compared to Poppy Bush’s pardons of his Iran-contra treason co-conspirators? Milo? Anyone?

Instead of concentrating on who might be winning the game of Partisan Gotcha, why not condemn sleaze and corruption wherever you find it, as an initial step to limiting its pervasiveness?

And just think of the moral glow you’ll feel when the crappy Bush pardons hit the news and you can condemn them without that taint of hypocrisy?

I had read on the Web and heard on the TV (which never lies) that there was actual breaking of keyboards. But of course, this could have been the result of graduates of the School of Exhuberant Journalism.

Great Goddess! What the fuck is wrong with these people? Hard drives missing under Bush Senior and keyboards damaged/tampered with under Clinton? If I damage or tamper with PC equipment when I leave a business, I know I am at least open to criminal charges (but would not necessarily be charged, I know).

What sort of goddamn juveniles do they find to work in the White House?

Anthracite, darlin’, you really gotta calm down. Maybe a nice cup of chamomile, break out the bong if you got one, this buds for you. Remember, this kind of type-A stuff isn’t good for you. You might pop a cerebral gasket, and then what? What would we do without our Dark Queen of the Twisted Sisters? Who would we turn to for definitive answers on coal ash issues? Who?

This just isn’t that important. Save your strength. If this is the kind of stuff that brings you to goddess-invoking outrage, the next four years are gonna take you straight to premature crone-hood.

High dudgeon is not to be squandered lightly. There will be plenty of opportunities. Trust me on this, I lived through Nixon. They haven’t even kicked the ball yet, they’re still arguing over the coin toss.

Well, 'cause this forum is called “great debates”, not “let’s all collectively decry sleaze and corruption wherever we find it”, especially given the OP’s directive to “let’s just look at this one action of this one person” -seriously, where’s the debate?

FTR: Did I agree with 100% of Clinton’s stance, actions, policies? Nope. Do I agree with 100% of Bushes? nope.

What do I think of Clinton’s pardon? well, from the information that’s available, I probably wouldn’t have done it. But then again, I was neither President nor in the room when the issue was discussed. I feel that he made a serious error in not consulting the Justice Department about it. But then again, pretty much any of his actions that contained the phrases “Lewinsky” and/or “cigar” probably were serious errors as well.

From what little I’ve seen in the news about the reasons, the claim appeared (IOW, I’m not claiming these to be true,here ). to be:

  1. The law under which he was prosecuted has changed significantly enough that his actions wouldn’t be seen in the same light (yea, I know that doesn’t speak to if they were illegal then, but it does suggest that there had been some change in how the actions are percieved today)

  2. He will still face civil penalities and fines

  3. The actions were of a corporate nature vs. personal (yea, yea, I know - I said I didn’t necessarily agree with it).

The point being, that there were other reasons than the one portrayed (the ex-wife’s donations). Do I agree with the pardon? See above.

Also, let me point out that I started a thread re: the infamous "W"s’ - I thought it was childish, silly, demeaning, and wrong. Like I said, I didn’t agree with absolutely everything that Clinton did. Never claimed to.

For the question **not asked and not even allowed ** by the OP : how does this rank when standing next to other questionable Presidential pardons?

Well, let’s see, this one, at it’s worst face allowed a guy to avoid prosecution (but not the taxes or penalties) of actions he had taken years ago, buying oil from a country he wasn’t supposed to, and avoided charges by fleeing the country. The accusation is that the pardon was done in essence as an exchange - donate $$ to campaigns and daddy will come home. If the accusation is the truth, yep, that’s a pretty shady reason (although it does seem that there were other potential reasons, others may disagree).

On the other hand, we can look at Bush’s pardon of several guys who were about to be questioned in a grand jury, effectively stopping the investigation into a series of actions that could be considered treasonous (the sale of arms to the same country that the other guy was buying oil from). These guys also evaded a criminal prosecution potential incarceration, fines etc. Their pardon got them out of all of it. The timing of those pardons came just about the same time that it became clear that Mr. Bush’s own actions may have ultimately been targeted, since he’d kept a journal. No $$ changed hands, but Mr. Bush personally gained from not having his own actions come under scrutiny by a special prosecutor (and we all know how fun that can be). Hmmm, yep, darned shady as well.

December 11, 1992: White House informs Independent Counsel that President Bush has kept diaries relevant to Iran/contra, which have never been produced to investigators.
Dec. 24, 1992: President Bush pardons Weinberger, Clarridge, McFarlane, Fiers, Abrams and George. Independent Counsel denounces pardons
Timeline

Now, what was the debate again?

Anthracite, darlin’, you really gotta calm down. Maybe a nice cup of chamomile, break out the bong if you got one, this buds for you. Remember, this kind of type-A stuff isn’t good for you. You might pop a cerebral gasket, and then what? What would we do without our Dark Queen of the Twisted Sisters? Who would we turn to for definitive answers on coal ash issues? Who?

This just isn’t that important. Save your strength. If this is the kind of stuff that brings you to goddess-invoking outrage, the next four years are gonna take you straight to premature crone-hood.

High dudgeon is not to be squandered lightly. There will be plenty of opportunities. Trust me on this, I lived through Nixon. They haven’t even kicked the ball yet, they’re still arguing over the coin toss.

Oh, crap. I’ve been cloned!

Sorry about that, guys. Don’t imagine anything I’m gonna say is worth reading twice. There are those who might well suggest it isn’t worth reading once.

The point about Bush the Elder is well taken here. I remember it well. That journal/diary was not going to see the light of day, they’d have pardoned Charlie Manson to prevent that from happening. To the great disappointment of this flaming radical. Wasn’t that about the time Ollie North became the media darling for his fifteen? Yeah, LOTH. (Leaning Over Toilet, Hurling).

Speaking of that there OP - yes, I think a simple decrying of sleaze in the cited Clinton pardons is a worthwhile and apropos response.

Milossarian requested we avoid the “other people did bad things” excuse, but I am happy to agree that Iran-Contra protagonists were wrongly let off and sleaze swept under the rug in that instance. And I am on record as saying that the Reagan administration surpassed Clinton’s for overall unethicality.

The distractions of Bush’s inauguration obscured some of the worst of the Clinton pardons, some of which are only now being discussed in detail. Take Arnold Prosperi, who according to the N.Y. Daily News “siphoned $3 million from a client, then created bogus bank certificates to make it appear the money was secure.” Prosperi, a Democratic Party fundraiser and old college friend of Bill Clinton’s, donated about 40 grand in stolen money to Hillary Clinton’s White House renovation project. He has had his sentence commuted by Bill and will never have had to do a day in jail.

The more stink we raise about this sort of injustice, the less likely it will rear its head in the future. That goes for Clinton supporters too, even if their lifetime score in Partisan Gotcha goes down a few points and Milossarian gets a charge out of it. :wink:

I object ot some of Clinton’s choices in exercising this particular Presidential power.

This makes Clinton exactly typical of late 20[sup]th[/sup] century presidents. Some of his pardons were offensive, but they are far from the most egregious examples in recent history. They are also far from the most egregious examples of the undue influence of money in American politics.

Milo does have a point, though. For all dopers who believe that Clinton is a moral paragon incapable of making any unethical choices, I think Milo has astutely demonstrated the weakness of that position.

Gosh, Spiritus…do we have any such dopers around here? That’s an amazing idea… or am I being slow?