Clinton - I beg your pardon?

Great Debates
21

Oh, the humiliation! The Republic is stained and besmirched! The President of the United States of America, William Jefferson Clinton, likes a bit on the side! Let us rend our garments and gnash our teeth, in the eyes of the Nations we are degraded!

Admittedly, Nixon treasonously undermined the Paris peace talks, causing the needless sacrifice of thousands of American servicemen. Brought a blush to my cheek, to be sure.

Reagan bargained to sell arms to our enemies, invaded a soveriegn country on a whim, but no… wasn’t he, it was the people who wrote the script who are to blame, he simply hit his mark and spoke his lines. Still, somewhat embarrassing, having an amiable doofus make on air jokes about nuking the Russians.

But a President that likes a bit of slap and tickle! My God, the humiliation. But that’s not the worst of it! The scroundrel didn’t want his wife to find out! Calumny, infamy! Fomenting war in foreign countries, what is that in comparison to a knobjob from a bimbo!

If only such paragons of sexual virtue as Newt Gingrich were still in the public eye, offering some relief from the appalling spectacle of a middle-aged man getting some.

Not since Charlton Heston led the Israelites out of Egypt…

As to the Chinese thing: this is probably another example of Republican humor, maybe like thinking “Algore” is an inherently humorous phrase, like “booger”. I don’t get it. If you like, I can probably find someone who will testify that Clinton walks on water. You think thats heavy evidence that he’s Jesus?

I notice how you shrink away from the Sammy Sousa issue. A wise reluctance on your part, I warrant.

22

I heard it was Rich’s ex-wife who was the big-time fundraiser. Maybe she’s still fond enough of him to fork over some major bucks to the Dems in the future. At any rate, I agree this was a bad pardon.

Overall though, I was pleasantly surprised that there weren’t more sleazy pardons (a nod to the illusory “legacy”?). In particular, Jonathan Pollard, convicted of spying for Israel, will get some more deserved time in jail. Two pardons I fully expected to come off but didn’t were being sought for Reyes and Maldonado, two ex-Houston city officials now doing time in a bribery/extortion case put together Abscam-style by the F.B.I. These two have been pulling all kinds of strings to get off and had Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee working her influence with Clinton to obtain the pardon - but he didn’t go for it. Not very nice considering what Sheila has done to prop up *his *reputation, but satisfying nonetheless.

23

my bondage to you grows ever tighter… I delight in my enslavement, I revel in my servitude…you are, indeed, the Master!

stoid

24

I always thought the reason why Republicans were so dog-gone fixiated on Clinton’s sex scandal was because he was the first President in years who could appreciate a little on the side. :wink: I mean, really, could you imagine any nubile female who’d want to have sex with fossils like Reagan, Bush (Sr.), or Nixon?

(Either that, or the GOP wanted to make sure they got their $4 million worth from Starr)

Don’t forget Pappy Bush, who – when questioned about his involvement in those arms deals – suddenly demonstrated his parrot impersonation, repeatedly uttering “I don’t know”. Maybe that’s where Dubya gets the clueless look from…

Isn’t he in the hospital, serving up divorce papers to his still-recovering-from-surgery wife? :wink: Or was that two wives ago?

25

The silence on Clinton is positively … eerie.

Cite me a president who issued pardons to people who bilked Americans out of tens of millions of dollars, who never served a day in jail, and Ed McMahon will hand you The Big Check.

(Insert irrelevant, obfuscating ramblings about Republicans going back to Eisenhower here.)

But to get back on track, let’s see what another vitriolic, right-wing rag has to say about Clinton’s pardoning of Rich and Green:

(BTW: That one was from the New York Times.)

26

Excellent point! Although, to be entirely fair, nubile females are often attracted to pure power, no matter how ancient it is or what it looks like.

27

What exactly is it you are hoping to hear, Milo?

“Oh my god! I’ve seen the light! Why didn’t I realize it before? With this single act, Clinton has wiped away every good thing he ever did! He has demonstrated that he is the lowest of the low! Lower than any president ever…lower than the treasonous Nixon, even! What’s that you say? The New York Times dissed him? Well, then, what hope has he, then? What in heaven’s name was I thinking by liking him? Thank you, thank you for showing me the one true way! I’ll tell you what…let’s have his vile name wiped from the record of this strong and pure land that he has so befouled! Let’s all agree that the last 8 years were just one long nightmare we can now pretend we never had!”

Cuz if that’s what you’re looking for, you are strongly urged not to hold your breath.

You are also strongly urged to get over it. The man is done, over, fini. Nursing a grudge is so unbecoming, really. I know it hurts that nothing the Republicans did ever seemed to work, and it caused a great gnashing of teeth that he could “get away” with so much (blowjobs in the Oval Office! And then he * lied * about it! What a shock!), but there ya have it. The big guy is pretty much bulletproof and it won’t do you a damn bit of good to dwell. [sub](Now you know how we felt about Teflon Man…“I don’t recall…I don’t remember…I’m not sure” - of course, we didn’t know then that we had an Alzheimers patient with his finger on the button. That would have made us all feel so much better. I can’t help but wonder who DID know, however…)[/sub]
Delight in the dubious victory of Dubya. Hail to the Thief!

28

Ok, I understand the pardon of Mcdougal.

But Rich and Green??? I am outraged.

And these guys??? What the hell?

Uncorroborated information provided by a possible accomplice who was hoping for a deal to testify is to be regarded with some suspicion. I’m not saying the guy’s lying, but until there is something else to back his story…

29

This story on MSNBC’s web page suggests that some of your people are looking for ways to make null former President Clinton’s inexcusable pardon of fugitive from justice Marc Rich.

Now, I don’t know whether Rich actually committed the crimes for which he was indicted – Lord knows Rudy Guiliani got enough of his Wall Street convictions overturned.

I do know this: He ran. Rather than stand up in court and admit what he did or make the State prove its case, he took his billions and ran off to Switzerland. That ticks me off. The fact that he might just waltz back in to our country free of any obligation to answer the charges against him is morally offensive.

Mr. President, I didn’t vote for you. I was afraid of Attorney General Rudolph Guiliani. I don’t even want to think about Attorney General John Ashcroft.

But if you or yours can find a way to undo this outrageous pardon, I will donate $10,000 to your campaign or campaigns of your choice. I’m no billionaire like Mrs. Rich, but I do what I can.

Sincerely,

manhattan

30

This all rather confuses me, the more I hear about it. A Democrat Prez pardons a rich guy. Republicans outraged! Kinda weird. I mean, come the Revolution, he goes to the wall with the rest of them, so what’s the big deal?

On the other hand, there’s a trend here to be encouraged. “White Guys in Suits to the Slam!!” Yeah, I gotta admit, I like the sound of that!

Auto makers/tire makers with unsafe products. Break down, take down, yer busted! Tobacco Co. execs, swearing they didn’t know nicotines addictive. Slam! YEAH! I’m starting to dig this! While we’re at it, can we call back those Iran/Contra pardons, 'cause I kind of think that actually selling weapons to a hostile state…

CEO’s, in suits, nervous in the shower room… Oh, yeah.

MEMO

TO: Vice-President, Acquisitions
FROM: LeRoy
SUBJECT: Status Report

You my bitch!

cc.

Yes, this trend has definite possibilities. Time to break out the ol’ high dudgeon.

31

My understanding is that most crime is commited by people with few lucrative alternatives. That’s doesn’t justify breaking the law, of course, but it does give some small amount of sympathy when I’m feeling liberal.

Along those lines, I find white collar crimes, commited by those who could make a comfortable living legally, to be particularly odious.

Mr. Rich fled to Switzerland in 1983 to avoid prosecution for the following:

  1. Trading with the enemy (importing millions of barrels of oil from Iran despite a trade embargo). Max sentence: 80 years.
  2. Generating phony losses to evade $48 million in taxes.
    There are suspicions regarding:
  3. Circumventing sanctions on South Africa.
  4. Cornering the aluminum market.
    (Source: Economist, 1/27)

Mr. Rich has never spent a day in jail and never had to answer for his alleged crimes or paid a financial penalty. That seems unfortunate. I deplore his pardon.

32

You certainly are willing to risk alot and endure the unendurable just to soothe your offended morality, doncha think? I mean… bad guys get away with it all the time… why does this rise to such a level that suddenly you are ready to support BUSH and Co.?

Very strange, to my eyes.

stoid

33

The Rich pardon was worse than others because it stank to high heaven worse than others. Other pardons tend to fall into two categories: people who have done their time and deserve a fresh start for whatever reason and political cronies.

Whether a person fits the first category is of course a subject for reasonable debate, but I don’t think any reasonable person can apply it to someone who has fled from justice.

The second category, pardoning political cronies, is somewhat reprehensible, but I at least understand it. See, no one ever thinks they did anything wrong, which means that their confederates also did nothing wrong. So if, for example, Clinton honestly believes the whole Whitewater thing was a political jihad in which no one did anything wrong, he can morally justify pardoning Susan MacDougal. Same with Bush the elder and his Iran-Contra pardons. They’re wrong, but at least I can see where the pardoner honestly thinks he’s in the right.

Marc Rich is different. It just smells to high heaven like a money-for-pardon trade. Like I mentioned, he is (or maybe was) a fucking fugitive, for Pete’s sake. It’s not like he was unjustly convicted, or he turned his life around after he got out of jail or anything like that.

34

I’d like to add to manhattan’s evaluation of the types of people to get pardoned: Even in the ‘political cronies’ category, it is virtually (perhaps completely) unprecedented to pardon fugitives who have paid no penalty whatsoever.

In recent days I’ve heard Clinton mumble that if people look at the record, they’ll understand the Rich pardon. Mr. Clinton? We still don’t understand.

If it all was an erroneous prosecution, a miscarriage of justice, why didn’t Rich and Green come back and prove that in a court?

The number of left-leaning (but thinking) individuals and publications that have decried this makes the very few posting here who refuse to do same curiouser and curioser.

35

Now, Milo, calm down. Have a nice cup herbal tea. Put your feet up. Turn down your outrage vectors.

Now tell me, honest Native American: before you heard about the pardons, did you even know Marc Rich existed? Were you all in a lather about “trading with the enemy”? 'Cause, you know, thats all kinda familiar. Need I remind you? I thought not.

I don’t know all the facts in the case, most likely I won’t 'cause it ain’t much of an issue. The rich have a different justice system from the rest of us! Gee, no shit? Did he commit murder? Mayhem? Tell me why I should give a rat’s ass about Marc Rich, when tobacco execs walk about in the sunshine. Be stern, if you are just. But be just.

36

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I damn sure knew about Marc Rich. He’s one of our industry’s more famous rogues. Not quite up there with Robert Vesco, but he’s a well known baddie.

He was widely suspected of manipulating the aluminum market in the late 80’s/early 90’s after the CIS imploded, and he’s got a bunch of other “suspecteds” to his name.

And let me tell you, those of us busting our hump honestly in the securities industry are not happy at the erosion in investor confidence that occurs when one of these guys gets away with it, nor are we happy with the unfair trading advantage that accrues to those who break the rules (by violating the South Africa sanctions act, for example).

Sadly, though, Bush backed his attorneys off and said the pardons would stand on principle.

37

I guess that explains why Clinton commuted the sentence of former Dem. Congressman Mel Reynolds, who had over two years left to serve on his sentence. You may remember Mel was sent up for aggravated sexual abuse and violation of banking and election laws (when he was informed of the possibility of having sex with two underage girls, including a 15-year-old parochial school student, his comment was “I must have won the lottery”). Now in a halfway house, Mel has come out with a blast against the federal prison system, mad because of a lack of “rehabilitative” work programs (translation: he’s angry because he didn’t get paid much for work behind bars) and describing himself as a victim of “modern-day slavery”. So much for contrition.

In no time at all, Bush appointees will be descending into sleaze. Gore-Clinton backers will be pointing fingers and demanding maximum punishment, Bush supporters will be reminding them of Clintonite transgressions, and the merry-go-round will continue.

Gotta love politics.

38

Aren’t you the one who’s quoting opinion pieces from the Washington Post and the New York Times? How exactly is that silence? You can’t have it both ways. Either there’s no condemnation, or “even the liberal media is condemning him”. Which one is it?

39

I don’t do con law but aren’t presidential pardons inviolable?

40

I’m going to suggest something really bizarre. Something so extraordinary that I …well, here goes.

What if he did it because the guy’s ex-wife said “Please help me”. What if it was, in fact, an actual act of mercy?

Bill has certainly shown that he is capable of a wide array of human failings, is it possible, just possible mind you, that it was an act of kindness? Keeping in mind, the proviso that civil matters would be unaffected by the pardon, he was simply immune from criminal proceedings.

Frankly, I wouldn’t hazard a guess. Perhaps Bill signed too many pardons. Perhaps “Landslide” George signed too many death warrants. Which is the greater fault in character: too forgiving or too stern?