Hillary is tentatively scheduled to speak on the 2nd night of the convention and Bill on the 3rd (cite ). I’m guessing there’s going to be a lot of breath holding both times.
You trust her not to do something stupid that would harm the Democrats in the general election.
I don’t.
PUMAs and other Clinton supporters are acting on their own. It seems hard for you to take that in, but that’s how it works. It’s not because of Clinton but their own perceptions of being told by Obama supporters (Obama’s smarter than that) and the party leadership to basically sit down, shut up, and vote the way we tell you to. Clinton is trying to find a way to bring them back to the party and all you can see is her making demands for herself. Let me put it this way, since you think she’s such a self-centered, entitled person - it’s not in her best interests to have a floor fight either, any more than it is in Obama’s. But to completely ignore the large bloc of delegates that are coming to the convention for her would be not only unprecedented but completely idiotic. Why alienate people when you have a chance to win them over?
The Obamas donated to Clinton, and the Clintons donated to Obama. Hillary Clinton has been throwing all her support behind Obama; she makes it clear that he is the nominee and she is fully engaged in ensuring that he is elected. What can she possibly do that would satisfy you?
I’m not sure that it would change anything either – but that’s not really what I was responding to. Rather, I’m trying to take the perspective of a “Clinton delegate or voter”, as you proposed, and am having difficulty in understanding their aim. In my mind, the best case is that it’s just a type of public, masturbatory ego-trip. Which I don’t get…besides having just a bit more self-esteem than that, I’d be haunted by the idea “Gee, I’m celebrating the fact that I backed the loser. But I still deserve recognition…someone pay attention to ME!”
Alternatively, I could see a darker aim to pull a fast one; some sort of extortion, like “We’ll throw the convention into chaos if we don’t get X, Y, and Z concessions”. As if Obama hasn’t been consistently concilliatory and gracious thus far. Political reality may make such concessions necessary, but he’d be stupid to be held hostage; I’d expect it’d be a good way to inspire him to work at marginalizing her. A forced innoculation of sorts.
In the worst case, some Clinton supporters might even be operating under the delusion of actually having her get (steal) the nomination. Hoo, boy…I don’t think I need to provide my reasoning for why it would guarantee a loss for the Dems.
Again, I’m not saying anything about Clinton herself; just responding as an Obama voter to the tu quoque: “You’d do it too!”
No…no I wouldn’t, for I don’t see the point.
Because Hillary Clinton pulled dirty tricks against the good of her own party to get that campaign to where it ended and no one is likely to give her the benefit of the doubt that she’s doing it for any reason other than self-aggrandizing here. Who’s to say she’s not going to pull the same moves she did at the convention and bus in angry protesters to do disrupt a process she knew was fine in order to play the victim on national TV? Why should we expect the best of her this time?
I would not shake hands with a man who poked my eyes in a sword fight even if he did historically well in the art of sword fighting otherwise.
I keep telling ya, Obama voters are from Mars, Clinton voters are from Venus.
Great. Give the black guy the planet where all the monsters come from. :dubious: 
Would someone kindly explain what PUMA is? I can’t find a definition anywhere.
I think it’s time to tell Billary to get stuffed. They overestimate their own importance. Let’s win the election without Prima and Donna, then shut the bitches out of national politics after that. Let Hillary speak to a half-full convention floor, ditto for Slick Willie. To hell with their debt, maybe if they wind up getting burned they won’t put the nation through a Hillary campaign again.
What Clinton supporters don’t seem to realize is that this is exactly the sort of thing that reinforces why people don’t like her.
I’m not a fan of hers, but I think if she had quit the race at around the time most everyone was saying that she had no path to the nomination (instead of a few rancorous months later) and been unequivocal about supporting Obama (without extorting concessions, encouraging her candidacy for the VP slot, and generally behaving like a co-winner instead of a loser), I might be able to consider her in 2016 as possibly warranting my support.
Instead I’m remembering (I hope) the hard time she gave the ticket, her ego-tripping, her entitled supporters, and I’ll continue with an Anyone But Hillary policy.
Since she’s my Senator, I’m even thinking of supporting whoever runs in a primary against her in 2012. If no one wants to challenge her, I’ll do it myself. Can I count on your support?
I think I got it in post 3.
As cathartic as that might feel for you, I think you can see where it would be a stupid move for Obama.
. . . before Tuesday, November 4, 2008. But after that?
After he needs her votes in the Senate, either as a supporter or as a colleague? I don’t think so.
This has nothing to do with Clinton satisfying me…(rimshot please), but has to do with this meme, that Obama’s supporters would behave the same way and that PUMAs are just angry on their own and that they were not fed by Clinton.
This mess was created by Clinton even if it is out of her control and I have yet to see you acknowledge that.
As far as the convention goes, I have no problem with her speaking there. I have no problems with her getting her ‘respect’. I have a problem with her saying that it is owed to her. It is not. It is gesture of good will, it is a gesture of respect…but any goodwill or respect that is demanded by threats is worthless.
I would have much rather seen Hillary take the high road at the end of campaign and allow her respect to grow naturally, as I believe it would have. What stopped that growth was Hillary’s own behaviour.
You seem unwilling to acknowledge that.
YMMV, of course.
“Party Unity My Ass.” Their website is www.puma08.com.
I’ve done some looking into this alleged organization and I’m becoming convinced there are more people in this thread than there are in PUMA. Every reference I can find brings me back to the same guy: a nut named Will Bower. This entire thing appears to be based on the internet rantings of Bower and a handful of his friends.
It’s a tempest in something smaller than a teapot.
Ah! A would-be Caliban Taliban.
Please don’t tell me who I do and don’t trust. But what could she do that was “stupid” with a delegate count? The voting is over, so it’s not like she can change the outcome. Again, this whole thing seems like a media-manufactured “crisis” to me.
I don’t believe it had anything to do with Clinton’s behavior, so no, I won’t be agreeing with you on this. But I have yet to hear her say that she is owed respect. She has asked that her delegates be recognized so that they feel that they have a voice in the convention. To me those things are different. Your mileage obviously varies.
Yep, I was negligent in not seeing that. I skim too much.
You’re also right that Obama wouldn’t be terribly wise to follow my course of action. But day after election day, I’d be putting the two of them in their place.
Hillary is going to make a great attack dog surrogate for Obama, allowing Obama to float serenely above the fray. I think she has behaved very well since the end of the primaries.
Bill is having a little more trouble, but I’d bet good money (if I had any) that he will give a rousing endorsement speech at the convention. It might be a little too long (he likes to hear himself talk), and it will talk more about McCain than Obama, but it will not hold back in any way. Let’s face it; we’re trying to get the focus off Obama and on to McCain. The entire focus of the election thus far has been on Obama - we need to make it a referendum on Bush/McCain, which they will surely lose.
There is no good reason for going through this rigmarole, other than to keep the Hillary troops fired up on her behalf and maintain their resentment and sense of entitlement simmering.
This latest stuff follows stories about bad feelings among Hillary campaign officials, who were complaining that Obama wasn’t energetic enough about convincing his supporters to pony up for Hillary’s campaign debt, and also griping because their new jobs in the Obama organization didn’t have titles and responsibilities that were impressive enough.
Hillary could damp down all this nonsense if she wanted to. The only possible justification for planning a love-Hillaryfest at the convention, other than uncontrolled ego, is to detract from Obama’s big moment.