Closing Miegs Field

Great Debates
101

Once again you display your ignorance of aviation.

Primary flight training is NOT done on a simulator. It’s not cost-effective. A truly useful full-motion simulator such as airlines or military uses costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and is extremely labor-intensive to maintain. It is nothing unusual for it to cost hundreds of dollars per hour to operate. A trainer plane can be obtained for under $50,000 and costs about $60-80 dollars per hour to operate.

Actually, “baby-sitter” does describe the role of flight instructor quite a bit of the time. But tell me how this young man’s age was a factor in what he did? Is there some magical age at which a person is no longer vulnerable to suicide?

I can only assume you are not very famillar with the Tampa case, as you have not once mentioned the young man’s ethnicity, which many thought was a factor in the matter. Again, it is apparent you get your information from the headlines and do not investigate to any depth.

Being female, strictly speaking I have no balls at all… :smiley: (snort, guffaw…)

I did admit the flight instructor screwed up - that is not sufficient? As I also pointed out, procedures have been changed to make another such incident much less likely.

Um… no, I didn’t state it quite like that. However, the facts remain that he was, indeed, in violation of FAR Part 157 which requires a MINIMUM of 30 days notice prior to closing any airport, and Illinois state law which requires similar notification prior to the modification of any runway or taxiway at any airport in the state. Since he broke the law he is, as you put it, “a crook”. Richard Nixon was forced to resign from President of United States for his involvement in law-breaking activities - why should the Richard in Chicago be cut any more slack than that?

That’s not being alarmist, that is the truth. Closing a patch of pavement does abosolutely zip to prevent an airplane from colliding with a building in downtown Chicago. Now, installing HUGE NETS along the lakefront MIGHT stop very small planes from flying over the Loop… but I doubt that’s going to happen. Short of installing anti-aircraft batteries along the lakeshore (yes, that would be a pleasent additiona, wouldn’t it?) to shoot wayward aircraft out the skies I’m not sure what could be done to prevent planes coming over the water towards the Loop buildings.

[quote]
[li]specious (“How much of your liberty are you willing to yield in pursuit of an impossible goal?”)[/li][/quote]
And you still haven’t answered the question. I’ve been answering yours - why don’t you answer ours?

[quote]
[li]threatening (“There are 700,000 active licensed pilots in the US - and they are very, very angry right now. All of them.”)*, [/li][/quote]
How is that threatening? I never said we were going to march in the streets. If we believe we have a legal grievance we have as much right to take it to court as anyone else. We have a right to boycott any business we disagree with (if there are so few of us that our opinions don’t matter our boycott won’t either). And there really are 700,000 licensed pilots in this country and I don’t know a single damn one who is neutral on this, much less in favor of it.

[quote]
[li]exaggerated (“imagine you’re having health problems, you get an appointment with your doctor, and… he has to cancel because some self-important politician 300 miles away has impounded your doctor’s means of transportation.”),[/li][/quote]
How is it exaggeration to point out that it was mostly doctors who were stranded at Meigs? Doctors who have patients who need their services.

Meigs DID serve the medical community. On average 200 trauma patients a year were transported through Meigs. The majority of organs for transplant in the city of Chicago flew through Meigs - not only is the airstrip closer to downtown hospitals, but with less traffic and a smaller footprint Meigs experienced far fewer delays - and time is of the essence with organ transplants.

There are no longer rescue helcoptors in the downtown area. There is no longer air ambulance service to Northwestern Memorial Hospital. How does this benefit anyone?

[quote]
[li]melodramatic (“But, of course, the lives and safety of pilots don’t matter to King Daley.”)[/li][/quote]
They don’t. If he gave a damn about us he would have given us some notice so the planes there could have left on an undamaged runway, with rescue equipment on hand in case something went wrong on take-off.

Ah… do you think only pilots cared about the airport? Or do you think pilots don’t have friends and family who might agree with them?

Oh, and by the way - subtract about 13,000 from your total Chicago population, that’s how many pilots live in Chicago. Or don’t you consider them citizens, too?

Then defend your opinion by answering the following question:

-> How do you think closing Meigs prevents an airport from colliding with a building?

I doubt the police and fire departments are “operated at a profit” either, yet the city funds them. The CTA is DEFINITELY not operated at a profit, yet it exists. There no admission charged to parks so they’re a DEFINITE money-loser, too.

There was a time no so long ago when Meigs broke even - in other words, it was self-supporting. Funny how since Daley took office and put one restriction after another on it, and one fee after another on it, it has suddenly lost it’s viability. Explain that if you will - my local airport has one runway about the same size as Meigs yet it brings more money into Griffith, Indiana than any other business in the town. Millions of dollars worth of business, and employs 50 people. We had 6 planes full of business people fly in just this weekend then take a cab to Chicago - that about 20 people who stayed in OUR hotels, who bought OUR gas, rented OUR cars… that’s business WE got instead of Chicago. Over just two days. Gary airport got plenty more, I’m sure - they have much better facilities for business jets than we do.

But if Chicago is doing so well economically they can afford to lose business that way… well, OK, I’m happy to have it come to MY neighborhood.

So answer the question - how does closing an airport prevent ANY airplane from crashing into a building?

In that case - why finance, operate, maintain, and secure O’Hare or Midway? On any given day what percentage of the people using those airports are Chicago residents?

Strictly speaking, being an Indiana resident, I take the South Shore downtown. Which you should be able to figure out if you were actually a “Chicago resident” and paying attention.

To be fair, though - when going to O’Hare I do normally take the El from downtown to the big airport, just like all the other po’ folks. I also ride the bus with the unwashed. For a pilot, I’m incredibly humble :smiley:

But sir - for a mere $6,000 and a little effort on your part you, too, could be one of the despised pilots, and for under $50,000 purchase an airworthy plane to fly. It’s all a matter of desire. Aviation is not exclusively the doman of the rich - in fact, most of the pilots I know are truck drivers, auto mechanics, and steel workers. Of course, we’re all just Indiana hicks, too, so obviously we don’t count anyhow.

102

Truly, KoalaBear, you produce so many fractured factoids that it is hard keeping up with them all.

Allow me to point out that it was GENERAL AVIATION (an advanced training facility) that alerted the Feds in Minnesota to the strange behavior of a flight student, one Zacarrias Moussasoui (whose name I’m sure I’ve misspelled) leading to his arrest. The evidence is quite strong he was part of the September 11 plot

Allow me to point out that it was GENERAL AVIATION in Arizona (another flight school) that alerted Fed to foreign flight students with questionable skills and actions - but were ignored by the government agencies.

Allow me to point out that it was GENERAL AVIATION in Florida (another flight school that alerted the Feds to similar goings-on - and were also ignored. The pilot they had questions about? It was Mohammad Atta.

Seems to me like you’re shooting the messenger. If someone had taken the “little pilots” seriously we might have stopped the plot before September 11, 2001.

Yet the commercial airlines are coddled and bailed out, despite the fact they refused to do things such as secure the cockpits for thirty years, claiming it would cost too much. How many of the many general aviation businesses shut down by the post-9/11 flight restrictions have been bailed out? Zero.

Sure, shut down Meigs and the little planes that can do little damage - but the flight paths for Midway still pass within two miles and less of the downtown skycrapers. And THOSE are the airplanes that will bring down the tall buildings. In other words - no, you aren’t any safer than you were last month.

The shutdown of Meigs has nothing to do with safety - it has to do with the bruised ego and greed of a egotistical Mayor who hates to hear the word “no”, will die before he admits he was wrong, and hopes to make a mint off the casino he and his buddies plan to build on Northerly Island.

103

Now, here’s where the problem comes in.

Logically, if the mayor of a city were to destroy an airport WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE OR PERMISSION OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, that mayor would be in deep trouble. In my home city (Sacramento, California), for instance, our mayor, Heather Fargo, would be recalled immediately, and might even be put under criminal investigation (BTW, what crimes, if any, did Daley do in his actions? He’s got to have done something illegal, but I’m not certain that he did.)

Unfortunately, this won’t happen. First of all, the Governor of Illinois has been regarded throughout his political career as being under the thumb of Alderman Richard Mell, one of Daley’s biggest allies. Second, the Illinois Attorney General, Lisa Madigan, is the daughter of another Daley ally, and her father, Michael, is the Speaker of the Illinois House. Finally, because of the power that the Daleys have within the Democratic party (his brother being the former Secretary of Commerce and, I believe, Gore’s campaign manager in 2000), the federal government is unlikely to do an investigation, for fears of being accused of partisan politics.

Oy vey.

104

In other words, it would be a valuable character-building experience for us if we traded our safety for your convenience? I don’t think so. The City of Chicago isn’t going to pay for an airport you don’t need and it doesn’t want with the blood of its own citizens.

Reality check, Johnny: Meigs Field was closed (note verb tense) because it was a terror risk. I agree with that decision; I need to prove nothing.

Take it to another thread, then. This one is about Meigs.

Straw Man: Proving a light plane can’t raze a skyscraper does not prove Meigs isn’t an aviation terror risk. Next fallacy, please?

Ad Hominem, also irrelevant: My ignorance of aviation does not excuse the flight instructor’s negligence. If the kid was too young to solo, he was too young to be given unsupervised access to a fully functional aircraft.

No, there’s a magical age at which a flight instructor cannot be held responsible for failure to provide direct supervision to a minor.

Perhaps you can put me in touch with someone suitably racist to explain where the flight instructor was, and what he was doing, at the time the aircraft was stolen?

Let’s zoom out from the ant’s-eye-view for a moment and consider the big picture: the only provably secure airport is a closed airport, and by that definition Meigs is now most certainly secure.

You stated it precisely like that. They are, verbatim, your words.

Richard Nixon wasn’t forced to resign. He did it to avoid impeachment and trial by Congress, which would have denied him the ability to nominate his own successor, thereby leaving him without the means to obtain the Presidential pardon necessary to evade criminal punishment for his actions. It was a shrewd means of evading responsibility – I’m surprised you didn’t take notes.

Because it isn’t a felony to deny you a luxury.

Truth? It isn’t even a fact. It’s an opinion, and one of dubious veracity at that.

Because it’s a false dilemma. I don’t have to choose between liberty and security: I can exchange your surplus liberty for my increased security and therefore remain in possession of both.

It’s an empty threat I grant you, but it was still intended to intimidate, to suggest you could mobilize a population to overturn a decision you don’t agree with by force. Be my guest; I’m quaking in my briefs just thinking about it. I mean, my boots.

Mostly doctors or one doctor? You were trying to imply that the unannounced closure of Meigs could have put this doctor’s patients at risk, but if that’s the case he wouldn’t have left them to attend a medical conference in the first place. (You really do have difficulty recognizing appropriate responsibility, don’t you?)

Again, this isn’t the truth, not even a fact, but a rather hysterical opinion. As I see it, Great Debates isn’t the appropriate place for expressing hatred; take it to IMHO or the Pit or someplace that invective is an acceptable substitute for reason.

I believe it’s physically impossible, at least in one piece. You’d have to extract the airport along with a chunk of the land it’s sitting on and figure out how to fit all that mass into a catapult. And if you could do that, it would probably be easier to hurl the building at the airport instead.

The police and fire departments secure the lives and property of the citizens of Chicago. And now so does Meigs.

You say you’ve got no balls but I’d swear you’ve got a hard-on for the Mayor.

Thousands of Chicagoans work at O’Hare and Midway, and thousands of other Chicagoans fly in and out of them for business and leisure purposes every day. In their case the economic benefit outweighs the risk of operation; in Meigs’ case, the risk of operation outweighs the economic benefit. Guess which one got closed?

However, if you and Johnny L.A. agree to pump billions of dollars into the City’s economy I’m sure we could see our way clear to providing you alternative landing accomodations just east of where Meigs sits now.

105

Would you favor plowing up Soldier Field in the middle of the night? You obviously see it as a terror risk.

Meigs is open 250 days per year; Soldier Field hosts football and soccer games, a couple dozen dates per year at most. It’s used mainly by professional athletes and team owners, a privileged class is ever there was one. I’m sure there’s any number of open fields away from downtown where they could play, certainly they could put up with the inconvenience to make the rest of us safer. And getting rid of the stadium would free up acres of much-needed park land. The city is putting hundreds of millions of dollars into renovating the stadium; the money is coming from hotel and motel taxes paid mostly by people who will never even use it. And the fact that it’s closed during the construction proves that the city of Chicago can get along perfectly well without it.
And I do have to call attention to your tactics. You rephrased one of Johnny L.A.'s arguments as

and then take Broomstick to task for a straw man argument? I don’t find that approach terribly convincing. And I’m absolutely fascinated by the concept of “surplus liberty”.

106

That is people being free to do things that he does not approve of, have an interest in, or like…

107

Damn, now where will my flight sim flights start from?

108

He violated Federal Aviation Regulation 157 which requires prior notification to the FAA before closing an airport.

He violated Illinois state law, which requires prior notification of the Illinois Department of Transportation prior to closing or modifying and runway or taxiway at an airport.

109

Right… and we can just ignore those polls sponsored by the Sun Times and Fox New that indicate (Sun Times) a majority (slim, yes, but still a majority) of Chicago citizens favor Meigs over another park, and (Fox) 70% of Chicago feels closing Meigs was a bad idea.

You’re still hammering away at the “useless luxury” myth - and ignoring that Meigs was used for medical transport, and as a base for rescue operations.

Back in 1997, long before the “security issue” was raised, Daley closed Meigs. He was forced to re-open, but before that a compromise was proprosed. The rescue/medical operations asked if the park plans could include a helipad specifically for emergency operations. Daley said no - he wasn’t going to have anything flying in HIS park - not even an air ambulance for trauma patients.

Which is why I keep saying Daley doesn’t give a damn about safety or security or how a downtown landing spot - even for emergency choppers - could benefit the city. That business about a park? It’s a lie. He wants a casino. He’s wanted a lakefront casino in the worst possible way for a decade.

Reality check, Koala - Meigs field was closed and then the mayor claimed it was a security risk.

The Department of Homeland Security, the Transporation Security Administration, the CIA, and the FBI have all stated that Meigs is NOT a security risk and recommended NOT closing it. That’s why the most recent TFR did not cover Meig’s airspace - the Feds deemed the little airport was not a risk.

Since the whole purpose of asking for the TFR in first place was to close Meigs, Daley got peeved and had to go smash something in the middle of the night, just like the spoiled brat he is.

So tell me how the mayor of Chicago is somehow more qualified to assess security risk than the Federal government and the people who assess risk as a full time job?

It’s not a fallacy, Koala, it’s you losing an argument. The only planes that used Meigs were small, they were under the tightest security of any small airport in the nation. They’re too small to cause significant damage, and there was no way to sneak contraband aboard. Therefore, they were not terror risks.

If you wish to maintain that they were, explain to me how that would be the case. We’ve refuted every scenario you’ve come up with - can you proprose one that hasn’t been discussed yet?

You sure like slinging the jargon around. No, it’s not “ad hominem”. We’re discussing the capabilities of airplanes - and you have displayed your ignorance of those capabilities. We’re discussing potential hazards in flight training - and you have displayed your ignorance of that subject as well. It’s like trying to discuss French grammer with someone who doesn’t speak French.

Yes, this next statement is my opinion: I think that you find general aviation a convenient scapegoat and are under the mistaken impression that if we eliminate small planes (at the very least, over population centers) that the world will somehow be made safe. It is also my opinion that you are living in a fantasy realm in regards to terror risk and that you are wrong. There are far greater terror threats than small aviation, and they are being ignored by those, such as you, who are expending energies on an illusionary threat. End of opininated statement

That was not the question, Koala. The question was not about flight training, it was about how age had anything to with suicidal tendencies. It would help if you answered the answers that are actually spoken, instead of giving answers to questions that hadn’t been asked.

Nor have you answered my question about what age YOU think flight training should begin.

Ah, so you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. It is not racist to point out that the young man’s father shared a common background with many of those who have declared themselves our enemies. And, again, you are focusing on the flight instructor when the question was about the student.

A logical extension of the first part of your first statement is to close ALL airports across the country to make us safe. I disagree, of course.

As to the second part - that patch of pavement called “Meigs” may have been rendered inoperable, but the airspace above the Loop - the supposed justification for the closure - is now LESS safe than it was before because there is no one watching in the “radar shadow” and while the Elgin TRACON (an already overburdened facility) has been assigned to watch the radar accessible airspace by the lake, the loss of the Meigs tower means much less attention is being paid to the VFR traffic near the lake. Pilots have already asked the FAA to provide a common radio frequency for air-to-air communications along the flyway. The FAA is now faced with the unprecedented situation of a patch of uncontrolled airspace over a major urban center and no means to patch it - “uncontrolled” meaning outside of radar.

I also find it significant that they handed traffic control for this airspace to Elgin instead of the two remaining city airports, as the city suggested and as many expected. It seems the FAA doesn’t trust the city, either.

If Daley resigned for the same reasons it wouldn’t bother me a bit.

But it’s OK for him to break state and federal laws while denying me “a luxury”?

Yes, he had a right to close the airport. No, he did not have a right to break the law to effect that closure.

So… you don’t think having a radar blind spot over the downtown of a major city doesn’t pose at least a little safety risk? You think removing air ambulance and search-and-rescue services makes you safer?

No, it’s a question you don’t want to answer. How can you have “surplus liberty”? What a bizarre concept!

Why don’t you eliminate everyone’s “surplus liberty” by putting everyone else in jail - they you’ll be the only free person and completely safe from everyone else.

You are asking us to give up something for you — but what do WE get in return? And don’t say “safety” or “greater security” because I don’t accept that assertion as true.

As I said - the pilots of the country are not taking up arms against Chicago. We are voting with our dollars. We are free to take our business somewhere that treats us as fellow citizens. If that hurts the city that’s not “force” that’s free choice and democracy -concepts both you and Mayor Daley seem to have trouble comprehending.

Mostly doctors. At least 8 of the 16 planes I know were definitely doctors - there were several interviews with the pilots on TV in this area, and a number of them posted on aviation websites. At least one was a business consultant. So yes, the evidence I have definitely seems to favor doctors over other professions.

As for YOUR straw man about “the doctor wouldn’t leave his patients” - it’s bogus. Doctors are not prisoners. The “Bonanza doctor” flew in to attend a weekend conference for continuing education (as doctors are required to do) and fully anticipated being able to fly back on Monday and be back to his patients by Tuesday. With the runway torn up he concluded that the only sure way to fulfill his responsibilities was to take a commercial flight back to St. Louis to make sure he was back on Tuesday. If you can’t see what’s responsible about that, you really are hopeless.

But don’t let anyone confuse you with the facts.

And the medical and rescue services that used Meigs used to secure the lives of the citizens of Chicago, but they don’t anymore. How does that help anyone?

And who do you think worked at Meigs? Martians? About 50 people lost their jobs when Meigs closed, but I guess they aren’t important to you, are they? Or are they acceptable “collateral damage” in the war on terror?

And hey - why is it OK to use O’Hare and Midway for “leisure” travel but not Meigs? Business travel through O’Hare is OK and necessary, but through Meigs it’s a “luxury”? You’re being inconsistent.

Or do you put dollars ahead of safety? I mean if safety is the real issue, we should all be willing to expend our “surplus liberty” and abandon air travel altogether so our skies will be safe, right?

Ha-ha - not funny. YOU go take a jump in the lake first.

110

Then you are ignorant of the way a debate works.

We are not debating whether Meigs was closed. We are debating whether closing Meigs reduces the risk of a terror attack. You have said that it does, but you have not provided any evidence. You are the one who is saying the airport posed a thread. Therefore, you must provide evidence to back up your position just as we have provided evidence to support ours.

The debate with you is going like this:
You: “Meigs posed a terror threat, so I’m glad it’s closed.”
Us: “What makes you think it was a terror threat?”
You: “Because it was a terror threat.”
Us: “But what made it a terror threat?”
You: “Because it was a terror threat!”
Us: “What evidence do you have that it was a terror threat?”
You: “It was a terror threat!”

Surely you can see that you’re coming off looking like an ignoramus?

“Debate n 1.A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.”

You are not providing any points. You only keep repeating your statement. You have given no evidence to support your argument. You completely ignore evidence that supports the opposing view. You make accusations, and then do what you accuse others of doing.

Here, I’ll buy a clue for you: If you don’t know how to debate or if you will not follow the rules of debating, then you should stay out of GD.

111

That the second stupidest thing I’ve read on these board in the last two weeks, and it ranks up there in the top 5 of all time. Way to go.

Also, the way you claim your opponents arguements as fallacies instead of trying to refute them is cute, in an eye-rolling kind of way.

112

I see Meigs as an aviation terror risk. If you want to argue about Soldier Field, take it to another thread.

I’ll cop to that. Objection withdrawn.

Correct again. Access to Meigs is a luxury, not a right.

Meigs is not the City’s sole heliport, nor does closing it hamstring the City’s emergency response capability. It does however force you to choose among a minimum of fourteen alternative airports available to you.

False Dilemma: he’s not forced to choose between them. He can have both.

I’ll consider those opinions if you can supply links to them, otherwise it’s an Appeal to Authority.

I beg your pardon? Repeating the same fallacious arguments ad infinitum does not constitute a refutation. However, if I were to overlook the flaws in your reasoning, which I don’t, the City of Chicago still does not owe you a convenient lakefront landing strip: so long as it is the owner and operator of that airport, it is within its rights to close the facility for any reason it deems fit.

Yes it is: discrediting me doesn’t discredit my argument – the flight instructor was negligent whether I’m ignorant of aviation or not. At least have the guts, if you lack balls, to withdraw fallacious reasoning when it’s discovered. It would demonstrate intellectual honesty on your behalf.

Sour Grapes. I haven’t expressed an opinion of general aviation; it’s not relevant to the discussion.

Ad Hominem, also Irrelevant Conclusion. If the kid’s ethnicity is indicative of a heightened security risk, the instructor should have supervised him more closely rather than less.

Nonsense. If you could prove the Mayor committed a felony of any description, you’d have done so in a New York Minute. Don’t argue upon the authority of evidence you haven’t established.

If radar can’t see through buildings in the Loop, what difference does it make whether you have one behind them or not?

It’s a zero-sum equation, I’m afraid.

Johnny: construct an argument that relies on something other than your estimation of my education as it’s premise and I’ll be happy to consider it. Until then, buh-bye.

113

Let me get this straight. You are asked repeatedly to provide evidence to back up your assertation. You refuse to provide any evidence, and now you’re upset when you’re called on it? :rolleyes:

If you understand how a debate works, then I suggest you start debating instead of making unsupported assertations. From your posts, my estimation of your grasp of the debating process seems to be spot-on.

:wally:

114

I haven’t figured out the neat “quote” feature yet…so I have to manually say

KoalaBear said:

Johnny: construct an argument that relies on something other than your estimation of my education as it’s premise and I’ll be happy to consider it. Until then, buh-bye.

Apparently, Daley admitted the terror threat thing was a ruse and he wanted a park all along. Visit www.aopa.org which has a link to the Sun-Times article.

GA will always have to deal with the class-warfare folks. I guess I’m used to it.

115

Link to the Sun-Times article.

So, KoalaBear, comments? Retractions? Fading into the woodwork?

116

Thanks for the heads-up, WilliamsCrane.

Here is the article.

So Daley admits that he lied. So much for the unsupported “But it’s a terror threat and we’re safer now” argument!

117

Granted, but only up to a point. The government of the City of Chicago has a responsibility to act in the best interest of the city and its people. Further, because the city government is accountable to the people, it does owe them an honest explanation of why it has undertaken this action. My point, and I believe that of others in this thread, is that they have failed on both those counts. By citing the benefits of aircraft operating from Meigs, we show that the government, under the direction of the Mayor, has harmed the interest of some of its citizens. By demonstrating that aircraft operating from Meigs do not pose a terror risk, we show that it is being dishonest to all of them.

The existence of other alleged terror threats, of equal or greater likelihood than Meigs, is relevant to this debate. By pointing them out we demonstrate that the Mayor has unfairly singled out Meigs Field for closing. That, combined with many other factors, casts doubt on the Mayor’s stated reasoning behind the closing.

I chose Soldier Field to make that point because you had previously described its potential dangers, and because of the many parallels I could draw between it and Meigs Field. And my question about it still stands. Would you support closing Soldier Field by the same methods and the same rationale as Meigs was closed? If not, what is the difference between the two facilities that justifies their different treatment?

118

Then defend your position. Provide evidence. Construct arguments. We’re all getting tired of your “sky is falling!” argument.

Yes, it does. The nearest alternative heliport that I’m aware of is at 95th street. That’s a long way in traffic, especially at rush hour. The nearest airport is Midway - again, a long way by road if you’re in a life-saving hurry to get to Northwestern hospital

Yes, and some of those airports - O’Hare, Midway, and Palwaukee - are already at capacity. Chicago could support more airports than it already does - if the political climate weren’t so hostile.

Then he can tell the TRUTH - or isn’t that important to you?

The links to Tom Ridge’s comments today have been made multiple times. Go to APOA’s website and look up past links on the subject.

Oh, that’s a good one coming from YOU!

Yes, but the city does not have the right to break the law in doing so.

I repeat - Federal Aviation Regulation 157 and Illinois state law were both violated by closing the airport without warning.

See, THAT’s the ironic thing about this. IF Daley had given the required 30 day notice no judge would have ordered an injunction, there would be no question of law-breaking, the city would not be put in a position of being financially liable for fines and the expenses of the stranded pilots, Daley’s integrity would not have been questioned, there would be no organization of a boycott, and no one could have stopped him from closing the airport. In fact, I wouldn’t have even been ticked off - sad, yes, but that airport has been at risk so long it’s loss would not have been surprising. AND, had proper notice been given, there would have been time to patch the “hole” in the air traffic system and give proper notification to the entire air traffic system that the place was closing which would have reduced risk to pilots in the flyway and allowed Northwestern hospital time to figure out where the hell they’re going to be landing their ambulance choppers.

But no, he has to lie, break the law, and smash things. Wow, that’s NOT the kind of government I want.

But it does explain your inability to mount a convincing argument on your side of the debate. I wasn’t referring to JUST the flight instructor incident but your whole, sorry, pathetic lack of argument in all your posts on this thread.

Look, if someone knows jack$**t about aviation they could still participate in this debate by saying things like “well, couldn’t a small plane crash into something?” or “I’m not aware of what, if any, security would prevent X occurance”. Or, if your sufficiently ambitious, you could put words like “Cessna” and “small plane” into a search engine like Google and educate yourself. But you - you just keep babbling …terror threat…terror threat… and it’s just not a convincing argument.

So put up some evidence for your side or shut up.

It’s not? Yet you say that a bias against the mayor, or my position as a pilot, is relevant - that’s a double standard, dude.

But it’s OK for him to break state and federal laws while denying me “a luxury”?

I repeat - Federal Aviation Regulation 157 and Illinois state law were both violated by closing the airport without warning.

You can do jail time for either - is that criminal enough to fit your definition?

The point is that the air traffic control tower at Meigs WAS the air traffic control in that “blind spot” and by its removal you have a big hole in the air traffic system, in some of the world’s busiest airspace. The hole didn’t exist while Meigs was in operation - it does now.

#1 - Koala, you can’t argue meaningfully about a subject on which you are ignorant - ESPECIALLY if you’re also unwilling to learn. You have already displayed your ignorance multiple times.
#2 - you’re not a mod and you’re out of line for telling people to get lost. I find you EXTREMELY annoying yet I haven’t told you to get lost - get educated, get intelligent, yes. But I haven’t told you to leave.

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Your idol Daley lied to you. How do you feel?

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I read the article. It certainly introduces some new facts to consider, doesn’t it?

My position was and is that Meigs is a credible aviation terror risk, and that the City was justified closing it for that reason. For the City to suddenly say “April Fool! Our real objective was to fulfill the Burnham Plan!” undermines the legitimacy of their decision. The city closed the airport under false pretenses; I concede that point, and I strongly disapprove of it.

However, agreeing with the City should not be construed as speaking for the City. I have not seen any credible evidence, nor heard any compelling arguments, that convince me Meigs is not an aviation terror risk. With respect to the arguments advanced here, stripped of their invective, fallacy and doublethink, what remains isn’t at all persuasive: it amounts to accepting, say, Broomstick’s spin because her dishonesty is more sincere than Daley’s when they both seek to impose a false view of reality to protect their respective interests.

Thus the conundrum for me, personally, is the reconciliation of mutually exclusive values: one one hand, I disbelieve the principle that the end justifies the means; on the other hand, to the extent the airport is closed I’m satisfied of its security.

Clear enough?

I agree with you. The City owes the citizens a candid explanation for its actions, especially when it anticipates a tough sale. I’m ashamed of the City’s exhibition of cowardice and dishonesty in the matter.

I could respond to that two ways: (a) we could take the thread in the direction of terror risks associated with public stadiums, rapid transit, vehicle rental and so forth, none of which are relevant to the question of Meigs and are guaranteed to derail what little coherence the thread has left, or (b) we can set them aside and concentrate on the issues we’ve already ladled on to the plate before we return to the banquet of bullshit for more.If non-Meigs-related threats are worthy of discussion, surely they’re worthy of their own threads; addressing them here only further obfuscates this one.

Well, it’s a good thing for us you’re not the City’s emergency service coordinator: the nearest alternative heliport I can think of is at Cook County Hospital, which is no further away than it was before Meigs was closed.

If you were in that much of a hurry you’d beeline to the University of Chicago from Midway. It also has a heliport, by the way, which Northwestern Memorial does not. Is the closest Level I trauma center not good enough for you?

Most certainly it is. But I happen to be debating with you, in which case it would be prudent to remove the log from your own eye before pointing to the sliver in his.

Indeed they have, and I quote Mr. Ridge: “I am not about to second guess any mayor or any governor for making an executive decision to do or not to do something they feel will have or have not an impact on their community.”

If that’s what the Department of Homeland Security doesn’t have to say about the issue, I can’t wait to read what the Transportation Security Adminstration, the CIA and FBI haven’t got to say about Meigs’ safety and security as well.

Citations, please?

Who the fuck died and left you judge, jury and executioner? Indict the man and try him if you think you’ve got the evidence, otherwise give it a rest.

I’ve said no such thing and you know it. Let’s set the facts straight anyway:

Johnny invited me to get lost. I invited him to construct an argument worth my attention instead. Nice try, though.

And I find you FUNDAMENTALLY dishonest, a natural enemy if you like, which is why there’s such mongoose-on-cobra action going on between us. For that reason alone I wouldn’t dream of asking you to leave, nor Johnny L.A. who would do well to apprentice as your familiar.

That being said, however, I’m neither willing nor obliged to consider arguments that are predicated and concluded by personal insults. If Johnny L.A. wants my attention that badly he can earn it with an earnest argument, but so far all he’s won is my profound lack of interest.