Dick Daley (Da Mayor of Chicago, if you don’t already know) needs to wear a sign saying “THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!”
Seriously, this guy is screaming-meeming paranoid about airplanes. Always has been, but September didn’t help the disease. Tomorrow the F’inAA is re-opening Chicago’s airspace to pilots flying under visual flight rules - in other words, basically the situation that prevailed before September 11, which has worked quite well for the last 90 years without aircraft crashing into things they shouldn’t.
Here’s Da Dick’s words:
Yeah, just like I can get in my fucking car and drive from California to Chicago and not one person in Chicago knows about it, or drive a motorcycle or pick up truck or fucking bicycle and no one knows about it. As a matter of fact, my pickup truck has more horsepower, a bigger payload, and carries just as much highly flammable fuel as the airplanes I fly - but I guess it’s OK for me to drive a potentially lethal ground vehicle willy-nilly all over the countryside, but god forbid I fly an teeny weeny airplane - on fucking RADAR the whole goddamned time! - anywhere near his fucking PRECIOUS city.
Here’s another:
What? I lost my US citizenship when I got my pilot’s license? What the fuck is this noise?
You know, I lived in Chicago 15 years and never suspected I wasn’t a citizen of the city just because I flew airplanes. Damn! HOW could I have had the notion that I was a member of homo sapiens? I want all my fucking sales taxes back, you hear?
The FAA, the National Security Council, Department of Defense, Secret Service, and FBI are all OK with resuming normal operations in the federal airspace over the city but I guess that just isn’t fucking good enough for Dick Daley, now is it?
Or maybe he’s just jealous that the terrorists didn’t hit his city and NYC is getting all the attention? Naw… that would require him to look outside his own narrow interests.
Makes me want to organize a massive flight to zip back and forth, back and forth over the goddamned city all day long, you know? Just to piss Dick Daley off. He’s just a fucking mayor, nothing more than that.
PISS OFF MAYOR DALEY! I’d relieve my bladder 1500 feet over your house but my mother raised my better than that. Also, being a girl my aim isn’t that great and I might hit one of your neighbors’ houses, and I’d feel bad about that because I haven’t anything against THEM.
If you want to fly a little Cesna around the country without filing a flight path, more power to you. The worst thing that can happen is you crash and cause about as much damage as a car crash.
On the other hand, I would be pretty uncomfortable if 200 ton (or however much they way) jumbojets were zipping around with no one watching them.
Geez, the reactionary nature of some folks after September 11 is getting really silly. What I mean by that is that there are some risks that should have been forseen, while others are not really risks. For example:
Reagan National Airport was closed for the longest time, with talk of closing it permanently. It was as if the FBI suddenly satu up and said, “Hey you guys! Did you notice that there’s an AIRPORT right next to WASHINGTON?! That could be a problem!!!” Everyone knew airplanes were a potential threat when hijacked. They shouldn’t have opened an airport there if it was too much of a risk next to the nation’s capital.
Second example would be… well, what Broomstick said. Daley is reacting to a situation that has worked well for a long time, and is in the process of being changed for the better anyway.
And Mrs. Smith, the jets ARE always being watched. They must be on an IFR flight plan when operating above 18,000 feet, which all commercial jets do. That means they are under positive ATC control at all times.
Well, actually, if I was flying around the country I would, in fact, file a flight plan because, if I did crash, the search and rescue people would then have some clue where to look for me. In my own backyard (so to speak) I usually don’t bother unless there is a requirement to do so. It surprises people to find out that, as a matter of fact, most general aviation flights don’t require a formal flight plan (though often we let someone know roughly where we’re going and when we’re supposed to be back, just in case). For that matter, most non-flyers have no clue just what a flight plan is, what’s in it, and what it is really for.
There have always been places that civilian pilots weren’t supposed to go - most notably military areas, around national monuments, and within a certain distance of the surface of national parks. For the most part, these restrictions make sense - dangerous to tangle with fighter jets on manuvers, overfly active artillery ranges or missle test zones, certain landmarks and parks would, if unrestricted, attract dangerous numbers of sight-seeing planes - And, after September 11th we all sat on the ground for a couple of weeks, then put up with restrictions we didn’t have before, because we do understand national security. We were (most of us) even willing to file a flight plan for every flight, even when just practicing take-offs and landings over the airport, if national security required it. Well, the Feds (who are supposed to be in charge of national security) have decided that we can have our privileges back. Who is Daley to decide to take them away again?
And, just for the record - even the teeny planes do show up on radar, even if they don’t file a flight plan. No such thing as a stealth Cessna! ANY aircraft within 30 nautical miles of O’Hare airport must either have a working transponder and radio OR make arrangements with air traffic control in advance, even if not going to O’Hare - and that was the case even prior to September 11. Now, though, if you bust the rules they don’t just fine you and maybe slap cuffs on you when you land (you’re on radar - you can run but you can’t hide - bwa-ha-ha-ha!) they send a military intercept to either force you down or, if necessary, shoot you down. In other words, the penalities for misbehavior have gone up considerably. Not that there has ever been a whole lot of misbehavior over Chicago - flying is very Darwinian in nature and fools do not last long.
I do know one group of people who, without transponders, did arrange to fly to Meigs field some time ago, and they were required to adhere to a strict flight path, strict time frames, and other requirements all arranged a week in advance. So, even prior to September 11 the airspace over Chicago was very controlled, even when under visual flight rules. There are NOT people careening wildly out of control every which way, as Daley seems to think.
Then again, maybe he thinks flying over Chicago is as crazy as driving the Damn Ryan freeway at rush hour. Well, it ain’t. I feel a LOT safer in the air. Daley is just plain fucking ignorant when it comes to aviation and he shows it every time he opens his goddamned mouth. He doesn’t want ANY flying over the city, really - as far as he’s concerned the damn airlines can circle around and fly in from the west. He doesn’t give a damn about the tax-paying flight schools and flight students in his city - I guess he thinks pilots are manufactured in a factory in Montana or something. Next he’ll probably demand satellites be re-routed to avoid HIS fucking airspace.
By the way - a fully loaded airliner is around 300,000 lbs, or a “mere” 150 tons.
[daley]Boats! we gadda get ridda dem boats! Anyone can get inna boat and ya got no license or nuttin’, and dey drive 'em drunk and what have ya. We gotta evaluate dem boats, I’m tellin ya. [/daley]
Actually, rumor has it that after Daley gets rid of Meigs (and pilots) the Chicago Yacht Club is next on the list of lakefront businesses to be turned into a park - whether we need a new park or not.
Why do you NEED to fly over the downtown area??? Sightseeing? Something else?
I live downtown and I don’t see many small airplanes flying over except for the ones that land at Meigs, which has been closed to private airplanes since 9/11, anyway, hasn’t it??
I think Daley is just making the major airlines alter their flight pattern in light of the WTC, which isn’t a bad idea.
Also, that Chicago Yacht Club is an eyesore and needs to go!
It’s not just the “downtown area” that Daley wants to declare off-limits but everything within 30 miles of O’Hare airport. That means not just Meigs but also Midway, Palwaukee, Waukegan, Schaumberg, and Aurora airports (and that’s just off the top of my head - there may be more I can’t recall) Since all of those airports (except Midway) cater heavily to private pilots, to the tune of about 90% of their business, this would essentially put them out of business. That means lost businesses and lost jobs. Oh, just a little airport, what’s the big deal you say? Well, Palwaukee hosts 300,000+ flights a year, supports several flight schools, charter agencies, car rentals, and several other businesses. We’re not talking just one or two jobs here but a significant chunk of Wheeling, IL revenue. The other three airports run 150,000 to 200,000 flights a year, also support flight schools, rental agencies, and so forth.
Another factor is the idea of going from point A to point B “as the crow flies”, which is THE major advantage small aviation has over cars and trucks. If a circle with a 30 mile radius centered over O’Hare is off limits then, in order to go from Gary, IN (where I live) to, say, southern Wisconsin, you would be required to make a detour around that area that would significantly increase the length of your trip. So, if I want to fly to Milwaukee from my home I would, of course, prefer a more direct route over Chicago rather than detouring over the western suburbs.
What about going over the lake, you say? Well, there are a couple problems with that (not insurmountable, but definite problems). First of all, that “off-limits” area extends over the lake, too. Meaning it’s just as long a detour with the added drawback of being out of range of emergency landing areas if your engine fails (due to water temperature, ditching in Lake Michigan would be fatal most of the year). Also, quite a bit of the airspace over the big lake is military airspace, meaning you have to work around their shedule if you want to go anywhere (when the military isn’t using the airspace they don’t mind civilians passing through. Usually. Always prudent to check prior to take-off)
And, of course, there is the sight-seeing aspect of the trip. And why not? Folks drive by scenic areas, why shouldn’t they fly by them, too? But even if you eliminated sight-seeing, the straight-line travel argument would still carry weight.
And keep in mind, Daley is NOT trying to eliminate sight-seeing - he’s trying to eliminate ALL aviation in Chicago outside of the military and the airlines. That means business trips. Charter flights. He has even refused to allow a Coast Guard search-and-rescue chopper to be stationed at Meigs. The Coast Guard rescue chopper for the Chicago area is stationed in Muskegon, MI, across the lake. Needless to say, this greatly increases the required response time for lake rescues near Chicago.
Well, even prior to September 11 there were a number of rules in place regarding overflying Chicago, put in place to reduce hazards to the general public. As a general rule, you’re supposed to keep about 2500-3000 feet above the ground over the Loop (you used to be able to ask for an exception, in which case ATC would expend a little extra attention on you and your activities, IF they granted you permission). This is required mainly to allow adequate clearance over the skyscrapers. At that altitude a small plane such as I fly would be hard to see. And you wouldn’t hear its engine over the city noise all around you. So, basically, they’re there, but unnoticed.
The exception is the traffic going into and out of Meigs field. Obviously, take-offs and landings are close to the ground. However, Meigs traffic is always over the lake. Always. Because that way, if something goes wrong, the airplane falls in the water and not onto a crowded sidewalk. Oh, wait, didn’t I say that most of the year going into the water usually results in death? Yes, I did. By making this rule you’re practically garaunteeing those on the plane will die if something happens, but better to lose 1 or 2 or 6 than a couple dozen or a hundred by having a tragedy on Michigan Avenue. And, over the decades, that has been the case - pilots and passengers occassionally meeting a watery end, but never anyone on the ground (or even a sailboat) getting hurt. Well, that’s a risk you take when you fly into Meigs, just like you run a small risk of falling into the ocean when flying to Europe or Asia.
OK… and altering the normal flight patterns is going to help in a hijacking because…???
Sure - close Reagan National because it’s so close to the Capital, White House, etc… but the plane that hit the Pentagon didn’t come from National It came from Dulles. And Flight 93, also believe to be targeting DC, also did not come from National. If someone wants to use a jetliner as a cruise missile it matters little which airport the flight comes from! Hijackers don’t follow normal flight patterns, or any flight patterns.
According to the airline pilots I know there has been NO change in their flight routes over and around Chicago. So no, he isn’t talking about the airlines here.
On top of that - why won’t Daley let the Coast Guard station a rescue chopper at Meigs? Why is he opposed to the operation of ANY training flight whatsoever over the city of Chicago? Even out of flight schools that specialize in training pilots for the airlines? (You want the first time an airline pilot flies over Chicago to be when you and 200 other paying passengers are sitting in the back of the plane?) Why has he threatened to arrest the owners of the one remaining flight school at Midway if they open their doors?
This goes beyond just killing Meigs.
And it keeps pissing me off how he gets in front of a TV camera and talks about small planes like they are piloted by derranged fanatics. HELLO??? The Bad Guys ™ used fucking 757’s to do the deed, so by his reasoning we should ban the goddamned airlines and leave the little guy alone.
I am not a threat to anyone in Chicago, and resent the insinuation that I am, merely by having put the time and effort into accomplishing a particular training program.
No, he’s just milking the situation for his own political gain. Also, there’s that nasty rumor about him owning property overlooking Northerly island that he could, probably, make millions off of if sold as luxury condos. But his own personal gain couldn’t possibly have anything to do with this, could it?
I saw the area printed in the Sun-Times and it was pretty much a cone extending out from O’Hare to the downtown area. Is this wrong? I especially like to see a cite where it says he is closing Palwaukee and the other small airports.
Another advantage of airplanes is that they can go much faster than a car - 300 mph. A little going out of the way is a problem?? This is the same argument car drivers use for going 20mph over the speed limit. And, let’s face it, unless you are a commercial flier, you are up there for the speed and thrill of flying, not I can get from A to B much faster.
I don’t think hijacking is the concern on small planes. I think it’s dumping Anthrax or something worse. So you could be a huge threat to a lot more people than were killed at WTC. I am sorry you have to go out of your way, it does seem wrong, but it’s absolutely nothing compared to the security package that is on the George II’s desk right now. Wait until the ramifications of THAT hit. Of course, I don’t expect that will affect plane owners much. That will mostly effect people who can’t afford a car.
Meigs is going to be closed. Get used to it. Nothing there. Nada. Zip.
I can’t believe I am defending Daley :P, but he does own property overlooking Northerly Isle, if you count his house that is about 5 blocks west of there. I am sure that if he owned a large part of the properties that are currently being built in the area, we would probably already know it. John Kass would have let us know. To get from Meigs to any commercial or residential property (not counting that abomination that his father built and rebuilt), you have to go past Soldier Field, the Dan Ryan and the train tracks, all of which have more effect on your property values than some park 5 blocks away.
Geez, a politician using something for political gain. What will happen next??
Daley wants to keep all private planes (known as Part 91 operations) out of what is known as “enhanced Class B”. That means about a 30 mile radius around O’Hare, extending not only over the Loop but also out over the suburbs and Lake Michigan.
No, Daley can’t directly shut down any airport outside of Chicago - hell, he’s having a fuck of a time just trying to get Meigs closed. But by denying pilots the use of the airspace around O’Hare he prevents them from doing business. Could you run a truck stop if no one was allowed to use the roads leading to your business?
Of course, the average person has no clue how these things work, or how much even a small airport can add to the local economy. And some of these airports are “small” only in comparison to O’Hare and Midway. They won’t know until the airports are gone and they’re wondering where the fuck the jobs went and why folks aren’t eating at the local restaurants so much anymore and where did the car rental place go and why did four local hotels go out of business?
Daley did pressure the local FAA office to declare a zone 5 miles wide centered on Meigs as a “no-fly” zone immediately after September 11 - for which the local FAA office has been disciplined because that sort of restriction can only come from Washington DC. Daley has been told that if he wants something like that again he can damn well apply to the DC office just like everyone else. Mind you, no one is arguing that was a bad idea, just that Daley does not have the authority to make rules regarding the federal airspace.
A lot of people think Daley is agitating for “no fly” over downtown. He is NOT. He wants NO flying aside from military and airlines ANYWHERE over the city of Chicago and for quite a ways outside the city limits.
BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAP! WRONG!
I have flown 3 models of airplane. The fastest has a top speed of just 120 mph in level flight at full power. And that’s with just me in it with half fuel - a full load I’d be able to crack maybe 110 on a really good day. I know LOTS of cars and pickups and motorcycles that can do better than that.
The next fastest can maybe eek out 100 mph. The slowest has a top speed of (drullroll please) 55 mph. Highway speed. Less than highway speed in a lot of the country.
Although some small private planes can, indeed, push 300 mph they are a minority. About 2/3 of the private pilots are flying planes going no faster than 150 mph, tops. Given that you have to spend some time going up and some time coming down, at a slower speed than cruise and making far less time over your ground track, it’s not that much of an advantage.
Keep in mind, too, that I can drive my car throughChicago. If Daley gets what he wants I will have to make a substantial detour. I will have to stay south of I-94 and miles west of the tollway. It turns a 20 minute flight to the north suburbs into a 3 hour trip, and that’s assuming favorable winds. I might as well take my pick-up truck.
As for the “speed and thrill” of flying - it’s much less than non-flyers assume it to be. There are tens of thousands of small planes that are slower than the average sedan on the freeway. Those who want speed would be better advised to take up auto or motorcycle racing. Those who want thrills in flying might go to aerobatics - which are already banned over cities and towns.
Maybe it’s hard for you to understand, but for many pilots sheer speed is NOT the main criteria. Yeah, it’s fun, but so are a lot of other things in flying.
Um, yeah - but Tim McVeigh did a mighty lot of damage with just a Ryder truck - we didn’t ban truck drivers from cities, did we? I still see plenty of people driving vans around the Loop and god knows what they might be hauling in them.
“Dumping” anthrax out the window of a Cessna will, most likely result in most of the dust coming back into the cockpit due to the way the air circulates around the plane while flying. It’s hard to open the door and the airstream goes in, not out, of the plane. Ditto for dropping anything liquid. These small planes can’t carry a whole lot of stuff - and it takes a LOT of stuff dropped from altitude to arrive on the ground in a form concentrated enough to make anyone sick. Truth is, I very much doubt these small planes can carry enough Bad Stuff ™ to do the job. And a half dozen small planes flying in formation over the city WILL attract attention and fighter craft.
The only way you’re going to drop something nasty over a city with a small plane like I fly is if it has a crop-duster modification. This is not something you can latch onto a plane in a half an hour and without people noticing something is up.
I’m sorry, too. And that pieces of shit legislation revoking part of the Bill of Rights has been signed.
Don’t you see it’s all part of the same thing? We’re supposed to meekly give up our rights, freedoms, and hard-won privileges in the name of “security” and “safety”. Well, just how does confiscating toenail clippers and plastic knives from airline passengers prevent suicidal commandos from hijacking an airplane? How does detaining people indefiniately without charges keep our freedoms safe (didn’t we used to condemn governments for that?) The government can now enter your house and search your belongings without ever telling you. Excuse me? Doesn’t that sound an awful lot like breaking and entering? What about that bit against “unreasonable search and seizure” in the Bill of Rights?
Sure, ban civilian flying in the name of safety - what will they ban next? Boats? Snowmobiles? Privately owned vans and trucks? Pilots are an easy target - there’s only about 680,000 of us in the country - but what makes you think that it will end with just us?
And keep in mind - this is not the Feds declaring the airspace off limits, this is the mayor of a city. How much power do you want to give the mayor of Chicago? Does he know better than national security council, FAA, FBI, CIA, and Secret Service, ALL of which have declared there is no reason to ban civilians flying over Chicago under the rules in existance prior to September 11? Daley has made his case to the Feds and it’s been found wanting. Now he’s trying to win his case in the court of public opinion.
Uh, hello? I’m not talking about just Meigs here. Meigs has been closed before and it made little difference. This isn’t about closing a rest stop on the freeway, it’s about abolishing the whole damn highway. You, as a car driver - how would you feel if you were told that you were a suspected terrorist merely because you have a driver’s license and for reasons of national security you are no longer permitted to drive on any part of the interstate highway system or within the territory of any city larger than 500,000 people or within 30 miles of such a city and if you are caught doing anything the least bit suspicious while on the road you can be summarially executed by the national guard if you don’t pull over fast enough to please them?
