CNN's bullshit "under god" reporting

[OpalCat]

*Originally posted by SMUsax *
**That’s just the thing. The government does not require that the Pledge be said. Even if the school does broadcast the Pledge no one is forced to say it. I remember several kids in my school who stayed seated and abstained. In High School they didn’t even broadcast it or say the Pledge before class.

I just don’t see the problem. **

I was kicked out of an assembly in high school for not standing and saying the pledge. In elementary school you got in trouble for not saying as well (though to be fair, I went to a private school for elementary school)

[PhiloVance]

Don’t either!
Do Too!

Don’t either!
Do Too!

Don’t either!
Do Too!

Don’t either!
Do Too!

:wally

[Monty]

There is a way to see that the word “god” applies to a singular entity, Com2. Check a competent dictionary. The plural is “gods.” The feminine is “goddess” and the plural of that is “goddesses.”

Out of idle curiosity: how familiar with the English language are you?

[Com2Kid]

*Originally posted by Monty *
**There is a way to see that the word “god” applies to a singular entity, Com2. Check a competent dictionary. The plural is “gods.” The feminine is “goddess” and the plural of that is “goddesses.”

Out of idle curiosity: how familiar with the English language are you? **

Ugh, I meant refering to ALL of those at ONCE, which is what an ‘all inclusive’ pledge would have to do.

Which you CANNOT do in english.

[Czarcasm]

Yeah, I’m sure the Knights Of Columbus were refering to “God” with a capital “G” as meaning gods and goddesses when they fought to get the words “under God” included in the Pledge.

[grendel72]

C2K, they had it right initially- “one nation indivisible” does not single out polythiests, monothiests, or athiests.

[JDM]

*Originally posted by Monty *
**God per se isn’t in the Constitution at all. What you’re describing is a method of recording dates. Had the document been written today, there’s a chance the phrase would’ve been “Common Era.” **

George W. Bush:

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim April 14 through 21, 2002, as Jewish Heritage Week. I urge all Americans to learn about the history of Jewish Americans and to participate in activities that highlight the accomplishments of these citizens.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twelfth day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand two, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and twenty-sixth.

GEORGE W. BUSH

JDM

[Dragonblink]

Basically, this is the way I see it … on paper and in theory, the US government has no official religion. In reality, however, the US government is a Christian government, due to the majority of the people who form it. The law is one thing, the people are another.

Personally, I never recite the pledge of allegiance (sp?), but that is because I’m old enough that I’m not expected to say it in class. Anyone failing to stand and recite the pledge at an assembly at my old public high school got in DEEP trouble.

[Monty]

JDM:

Your pal, the bigot Bush, already lost a SOCAS case in front of the Supreme Court back when he was running for president. Please reread my posting which you quoted and you’ll notice that I said “chance” not “guarantee.”

[grendel72]

This is scary. I work for a television station, and yesterday when we were discussing this case several cow-orkers did not realise that the pledge had been changed.
Luckily they weren’t producers or anybody in charge of getting the actual news out, but damn, how do you work for a company whose job is to provide the news and remain so woefully ignorant of it?

[Monty]

Good question, grendel. Now, exactly how can someone be the president of the country and not know the contents of its two most important documents?

[Tiburon]

I said the pledge when I was in elementary school - never gave it a second thought, actually. There weren’t any kids in my class that I recall who didn’t say it. I never even digested the words - just repeated it because I had to and didn’t want to get in trouble.

Personally, I think I’m partial to the 9th circuit and think it’s okay to give it a big “no.” HOWEVER - I can’t help wondering, why don’t they just eliminate the “under God” part? Then they could say:

“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, on nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

Of course - when you think about it - if I heard that every day, Iranian school children pledge their loyalty to Iran and its flag, I might think, “Whoooaaa, they sure start that brainwashing early!”

That’s pretty nuts and odd for that to be my first reaction because there’s nothing really wrong with it. Or is there?

Tibs.

[JDM]

*Originally posted by Monty *
**JDM:

Your pal, the bigot Bush, already lost a SOCAS case in front of the Supreme Court back when he was running for president. Please reread my posting which you quoted and you’ll notice that I said “chance” not “guarantee.” **

I wasn’t disagreeing with you- your statement just happened to remind me of the item I posted with its unbelieveable insensitivity in dating a document declaring a “Jewish Heritage Week:”

in the Year of Our Lord two thousand two.

For that matter, it’s not “the two hundred and twenty-sixth” year of the “Independence of the United States of America” but rather the second year of the Lost Independence of the United States of America. I assume you were being sarcastic when you referred to him as “my pal.” If you weren’t, I will state for the record that George W. Bush is in no way my pal. No way in Hell. JDM

Although this does raise a question: is there an official mandated calendar for the US government? Could he have dated the declaration in the Jewish dating system? That would have certainly been classier. Of course he don’t know from class.

[Monty]

I was certainly being sarcastic with the expression “pal,” JDM; but sarcastic towards that ultimate bigot, the current presdient–not towards you.

As far as “official mandated calendar,” I’ll do some research. Might even be fodder for a staff report.

[Spoke]

The Founding Fathers were well aware that the Constitution omitted any reference to God (except in an incidental way in the dating of the document). The omission was not accidental. George Washington had this to say on the subject:

I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country.
– George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the “Magna-Charta” here refers to the proposed United States Constitution

As to whether the Founding Fathers were religious men, well yes and no. They were, by and large, the product of the Enlightenment, and as such, tended to put more stock in science and philosophy than in religion. Reading their letters, you get the impression that several of them were closet agnostics. I would put Washington, Jefferson, and possibly Adams and Madison into this category. All professed at least some form of “Deism,” however they might have defined it, but…

Washington, though he attended church with his wife, never took communion.

Jefferson expressed doubt that Jesus was divine, and seemed to regard him as simply a wise philosopher whose meaning had been misconstrued by his followers and by later writers.

Jefferson became cautious in his later years with what he wrote on the subject of religion, because he had been burned when one of his letters regarding Jesus was made public (after the death of its recipient), causing a minor scandal over Jefferson’s lack of piety.

Jefferson seemed to take some amusement from the way Washington deftly dodged the topic of religion:

“Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice.”

– Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Jefferson’s Works, Vol. iv., p. 572. (Asa Green “was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was chaplain to congress during Washington’s administration.” – Farrell Till in “The Christian Nation Myth.”)

Jefferson did not seem to think Washington was a believer:

“I know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did.”

– Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, February, 1800, quoted from Jefferson’s Works, Vol. iv., p. 572 (“Gouverneur Morris was the principal drafter of the Constitution of the United States; he was a member of the Continental Congress, a United States senator from New York, and minister to France. He accepted, to a considerable extent, the skeptical views of French Freethinkers.” – John E. Remsberg, Six Historic Americans.)

Much more on the religious views of the Founding Fathers here. (Follow the links.)

I also recommend a reading of the The Adams-Jefferson Letters, which contain some interesting tidbits from those two founders on the subject of freedom of religion. I don’t think either of them would have been pleased with the paroxysms of pious outrage we’ve witnessed in Congress over the past couple of days.

[Spoke]

It’s kind of pricey, but I also recommend The Republic of Letters, a three-volume set which collects the correspondence between Jefferson and Madison.